"Kramer's fame has far outlived his usefulness as a researcher": could you clarify your criteria for usefulness? It seems to be based upon how critical someone is of drugs or drug companies - you should be explicit about this. In other words, "people who believe in treating psychiatric illness should just shut up". Is that behind your ad hominem attacks?

Ketamine is already being trialed for acute Bipolar depression... wait, I thought these drugs corrected chemical imbalances?? I guess some people are suffering from ketamine deficiencies...

Instead of Kramer "shutting up" maybe he should investigate all these people who are committing suicide while on antidepressants. Here is the latest from this mornings news:

http://www.ssristories.com/show.php?item=3823

First paragraph reads: "Suicide is one of Florida's top 10 leading causes of death. Wakulla County deputies say so far in 2009, there have been six completed suicides. This is a drastic increase from the average of two a year."

Paragraph three reads: ""Authorities say many of the people who committed suicide were on some sort of anti-depressant medication. And none of these suicides have been linked to America's economic slump."

http://www.wctv.tv/news/headlines/78815462.html

Suicides Up in Wakulla Co.; NAMI Discusses Prevention
Over the past year Wakulla County sheriff's deputies have seen a spike in suicides. Now concerned community members are coming together to fight the stigma and prevent future incidents
Posted: 6:04 PM Dec 8, 2009
Reporter: Tara Herrschaft
Email Address: tara.herrschaft@wctv.tv

Suicides Up in Wakulla Co.; NAMI Discusses Prevention

Kramer is zonked out on drugs and has been since before he wrote Listening to Prozac and I'm sorry to say that anyone who has been taking a/ds for years on end is an unreliable source for their usefulness or otherwise. Same is true for Solomon, Jamison and a whole host of other "depressed" (or "bipolar") but articulate spokespeople.

Wait, Jamison takes an a/d??? Wow, I didn't know that.

Now, there's someone I'd like to shut up... "a bipolar life without lithium is insanity or death"... uh, maybe for YOU, lady

Sorry, that was inaccurate. I was "knee-jerking" again -- part of FSCD. I meant psych drugs in general. She's on something. It was lithium for years but she hasn't let us in on what the latest is.

"and I'm sorry to say that anyone who has been taking a/ds for years on end is an unreliable source for their usefulness or otherwise."

I'm sorry Sara but I take antidepressants for years and will have to take it for the rest off my life since I spent 19 monsths in withdrawal hell and after 3 months off the drugs, two suicides attempts living was impossible.
I had to go back to the drug.
As David Healy said "Some people find it impossible to withdraw.
I already feel enough stigmatized by people who don't know what has happened to me and now here?
People who knows are also stigmatizing me?
I'm sorry but I even forgot about the Peter Kramer.
I will come back later.
I also have to take 200 mg Seroquel and 2 mg Rivotril because I simply cannot stand withdrawal.
It all started when I searched a psychiatrist to help me take 0,5 mg clonazepam and he prescribed me Tofranil that provoked lots of side effects like panic attacks; extreme anxiety... and it was all diagnosed by another psychiatrist as disease.
I was not aware of all I now now.
I have been studying all this hideous and criminal things since 2001 and even started a blog to try to raise awareness.
My work is vain for what I see.

SOrry for the numerous mistakes.
I know now... I meant....

The main issues for me are:
1. The concept of cosmetic psychiatry, which seems to concern even Kramer. Sounds like a bad idea even if these drugs were reliable.

2. Since as we all know they're *not* reliable in their effects from person to person, the idea of taking a/d's to improve our personalities is doubly dangerous.

Ana, I too had a bad reaction to Tofranil -- a single dose! More weird is that I had taken that same drug 30 years earlier for a few months and got zero side effects. It actually helped me out of depression/anxiety when I was in college. Somehow, as my body aged, my reaction to the drug radically altered. This suggests to me that not only do drug responses differ from person to person, but can differ in the same person!

I'm sorry Ana. i didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I know that some people cannot get off. It just kind of frosts me when doctors and professionals who take the drugs willingly for years on end pronounce on their merits without appearing to realize the harm doing that can cause (even to themselves, but certainly to others). I'm sorry -- as I said I have FSCD and can't stop myself from making stupid comments from time to time. I am sorry for the great hurt that has happened to you and hope some day there might be a way for you to come off safely if you want to.

I just received an e-mail by Sara and it made me very happy.
I know her for a long time here at Furious Seasons and I always have admire her ability to express in few words some amazing ideas.
I knew it was not intentional and we don't think too much before posting.
Hard job to come here and read that nothing, nothing changes and even children are being harmed in such a way.
No harm done Sara. We are fighting the same battle... no! it's more like a war.

Peter Kramer,
Go to hell. lol
The media that listen to him: drop dead!

These are the evil people.
Yak!

I'm so happy to be at this side of the table! I can go to bed and sleep like a baby... with a great help of Seroquel but the good news is that I will never have insomnia for the rest of my life and it runs in my family.
As far as the other side effects are concerned I think I am lucky.
Still thin and I even lost 3 kilos. Have to gain them again. No diabetes... I only fear heart attack because my family... blah blah blah....

Peter Kramer is such a funny name for my ears!
But what he does is criminal not funny.

for kimbriel - you may also like this -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2009/09/04/ST2009090403042.html

"It is startling to learn of Jamison's discovery that her husband secretly kept a syringe and a vial of antipsychotic medication in his office at their home, in case her mania got out of control. He told her, "Medicine is imperfect," and then, "Love is imperfect." It is delightful, on the other hand, to read that he filled her bathtub with lilacs and roses when they stayed together in a hotel in Rome."

Isn't imperfect Pharma love touching; a syringe in one hand, flowers in another, lips moistened in manic sweat drenched with passion.

I would write more on this topic, but I need to go get some Kleenex for my streaming tears.

Kramer's a narcissistic nitwit masquerading as a smug, smarmy academic.

Listening To Prozac was junk science. Kramer feels he has to spend the rest of his career justifying that shoddy intellectual exercise.

It's his monstrous ego talking. That's all he's got left...

Ms. Piggy: oh my holy hell... are you serious??? Off to read the article now.

"Let them eat Prozac" this is the book, not Kramer's.

I'm editing Kramer's new book: "Listening to Paxil
and Giving it Extra Kleenex[tm] When It Has the
Sniffles". Expected publication date: Feb 2010.

Sara wrote: "anyone who has been taking a/ds
for years on end is an unreliable source for
their usefulness"

?!?!

You seem to be saying that anyone with
extensive personal experience (i.e. real
KNOWLEDGE at the experiential level) of
these drugs is an unreliable source! But
if they are not good sources, then who IS?
Only ivory-tower types who read literature
but who never actually experience anything
for themselves?

Personally, I've found anecdotal testimony
(such as on furiousseasons.com, and many
other sites) to be at least as informative as
the scientific literature. And it goes both
ways: informative about the benefits, as well
as about the side effects and adverse
reactions. Sometimes anecdotes can be better
than the science. They give you an in-the-
trenches view of the range of individual
responses that formal clinical trials do not.

Kimbriel wrote: "Now, there's someone I'd
like to shut up... 'a bipolar life without
lithium is insanity or death'... uh, maybe
for YOU, lady"

Maybe for a lot of people. This person may be
a fool to prescribe chemical treatment for all
bipolars everywhere. But do you really wish
to prescribe NO chemical treatment for all
bipolars, everywhere? Are you ready to take
that vast responsibility? If so, you are very
very brave -- or very very foolish.

Miranda wrote: "The concept of cosmetic
psychiatry... sounds like a bad idea even
if these drugs were reliable."

Why so, necessarily? Most people practice
cosmetic psychiatry every day: coffee, sugar,
alcohol, sat fat, (opioid-peptide-laden)
grains, tobacco, pot, etc., etc. I don't know
that this is a bad idea necessarily. All this
stuff goes hand in hand with civilization
itself; i.e. civilization (the neolithic
and beyond) from one angle is a big exercise
in cosmetic psychiatry -- daily personal
dosing with psychoactive chemicals, mostly for
fun, to feel good, and/or to better conform,
be more productive, etc. It has good sides
and bad sides, both.

SteveM wrote: "Listening To Prozac was junk
science."

Listening to Prozac was not science at all,
nor was it represented to be, as far as I
know. It was simply some observations --
uncontrolled observations. And some damned
interesting ones, I must say.

"If he and others are OK with altering peoples' beings this way, then I'm sure they'll be the first to argue for legalizing Ecstasy, Ketamine and PCP."

Is that meant as a criticism? Accusing someone of being in favor of ending the disastrous, ineffective War on Drugs - ouch! That's cutting.

"and I'm sorry to say that anyone who has been taking a/ds for years on end is an unreliable source for their usefulness or otherwise"

Yeah, because anyone with personal experience of antidepressants who doesn't hate them must be either lying or stupid, right?

Well I'm not saying we shouldn't be paying attention to what long term a/d users say about their condition -- it's just that unfortunately I also want to see what else is going on in their lives and not just hear what they have to say because it's been my experience that even when they say the drugs are "saving their lives" their lives are in fact in something of a shambles if anyone cared to take notice. I just don't feel these people are reliable sources for how a/ds work because SSRIs are pretty notorious for impairing judgment, blunting feelings, and even inducing amnesia so that some of the users don't even remember what feeling differently was like. I really have met a lot of long term users who are very flat and joyless yet say they are doing great. Being the way I am I'm always looking for the other shoe to drop and some other mental or health ill to take over. While in the case of those who get off I believe them when they say they are way better. Yeah I'm biased in the way I look at it. I don't deny it. But then I feel I need to be looking at it this way because the balance is so off in the vast majority of the general public about the true safety and effectiveness of a/ds.

Alan, my point is that people like Kay Redfield Jamison make these huge, sweeping pronouncements and it's very damaging to those of us who find a life without Lithium just fine and dandy... Lithium made me want to die, as did every other one of the 7 psych drugs I trialed which were supposedly "restoring me to normalcy".

My own personal belief is that people have the right to do whatever the hell they want to their brains, but yes, I DO get resentful of the fact that those who CHOOSE drugs get much more respect and are deemed to have so much more "insight" than those who CHOOSE no drugs. If someone finds their problems so severe and incapacitating without drugs, and the drugs do seem to help, then by all means, they should have that option available to them. There are others like me who found the drugs harmful and debilitating and our experiences should not be denied either. Do you know that I went to a University clinic for COUNSELING help and was told that because I have a Bipolar label, they would not take me as a client unless I took drugs?? That is the kind of shit I have to deal with because of the crap in the media and Kay Redfield Jamison is a prime example of that.

So don't assume anything about my positions. I'm just sick of people like Kay Redfield Jamison being the spokesperson for what we "Bipolars" experience and decide... when the experiences are as varied as there are people... but only ONE story gets heard.

Yak!
there comes the pharma-whores!
"Depression is caused by a chemical imbalance of serotonin... blah blah blah..."

It seems that it's not working since anti-psychotics works on dopamine.

5% of the reuptake serotonine stays at the brain an the other 95% goes all over the body...
blah blah blah....

They still believe in Santa! that's a good part of the year to believe in Santa.
Merry Xmas pharma-whores.

No. I'm not scientologist.
No, I'm not antipsychiatrist.
Yes, I'm for the truth.

"I know that some people cannot get off. It just kind of frosts me when doctors and professionals who take the drugs willingly for years on end pronounce on their merits without appearing to realize the harm doing that can cause (even to themselves, but certainly to others)."

Sara,
Some people are hurt and they don't want it to happen to other people.
Others are hurt and they want other people to suffer the same.
Didn't you ever heard about those people who are HIV positive and pass it to others on purpose?
There are many stories of people who did it.
Human beings are quite complex.
Too complex.
I'm glad to be part of the first type. Very glad!

As today is Humans right day if I was a pharma-whore I would keep silent.
It shows a little dignity left.
A tiny little bit.
No?
Okay! We understand! We understand!

He was lame enough in 2008 when he went after both Erick Turner's paper revealing that pharma companies had hidden negative anti-depressant trial data for decades and when he went after Charles Lamb's "Comfortably Numb," as well as when he tried to justify anti-depressant use because they seem to have an effect in post-stroke patients, but his being down with using Paxil to tweak personalities is far beyond the pale.
Philip Dawdy

Yes, respect this blog and Philip's work.
Nobody goes to your blog to claim this or that.
Maybe that's why you all keep coming here.
We know by heart and skin what you have to priest.
Give a break.

Sara, I was one of the unreliable folks who claimed psych meds worked great when they were destroying my life including giving me a hearing loss and cognitive impairment.


I was so spellbound that when I was diagnosed with a hearing loss and knew deep down it was the med causing it, I still didn't make a move to get off the meds. I justified it as my job being too stressful and didn't realize that I could change jobs.


It was only when I resigned from that position a year later that I made a break for it and am down to 1 med from an original cocktail of 4. I hope to be off all meds next year.


By the way, while part of me wants to flame neuroskeptic big time for what I feel is extreme arrogance, I have to realize that at one point, I thought meds were wonderful and minimized their side effects. What is scary is as I did that, I was deteriorating big time on them. My mother tried to point that out when she was alive and I sadly blew her off as being ignorant of mental health issues. Sound familiar?


Anyway, I enjoy your posts as you cut right to the chase.

I don't know... I think his point is that NOT EVERYONE finds antidepressants awful. If we get into the game of, "well, people who are on them just don't KNOW how they're really doing because they can't see it", then we are no better than the psychiatrists who so often say that we're doing better when we feel like crap. And it's true: some people do find antidepressants to be lifesavers, and can use them for a short time (2 months to 2 years) and get off of them and be fine. A very small minority, but they do exist. My inclination is to say that when you've been on those chemicals for years and years, even if you've had a good experience initially, it turns sour. But I've never been on antidepressants so I don't know from experience.

For all the bitching that we do, no matter what drug it is, if we go long enough, eventually there will always be SOME person who joins in to say that Drug X saved their life. Even the crappy ones like Seroquel and Zyprexa that no one really "likes".

That's well put Kimbriel and I agree I have a hard time telling people who have been on them for only a year or so that they are at grave risk when they are saying they're a lot better off. I never really try to argue -- I usually just say it's always a good idea to have a plan to come off in place. And I really do try to listen to them if they say how much the drugs have helped (even though to be honest I'm kind of rolling my eyes to myself anyway). The people who are "unreliable" are the ones who have been on for a long time. The dosages are so important. The people who benefit the most seem to be the ones who are on really low doses and stay on low doses. They're the ones who can come off with the least trouble too. That's been my observation.

Anyway thanks to those of you who say you like my comments. God knows I throw enough of them out here. But I appreciate the support.

Actually I've been ruminating over this a bit more, plus I just read some Grace Jackson stuff new to me, and I'm afraid I still have a ghastly dread that a/ds are doing harm to people even when they think they are really helping. The fact is the drugs may be helping in that 2 month to 2 year window but I think the drug takers are taking an enormous risk that they will be worse down the road even if they stop taking it. Someone close to me took Paxil for postpartum depression and she said at the time it "saved her life." She never took more than 10 mg and came off fairly easily after a year. She did try to resume taking it once briefly in the months after she came off and had a bad agitated reaction so stopped. Interestingly, now, several years later she says she regrets ever taking it at all. She's never described any long term effects after that and there's nothing super obvious in her life that would lead me to believe she was harmed but it is interesting that she feels this way. I've never really pursued it with her though. Maybe it's just the publicity about Paxil and knowing my story too but still. . . I had the sense she was referring to something more personal.

I hear you, Sara, and I'm inclined to agree. It's one of the more uncomfortable areas of my thinking... I'm just not sure how I can justify saying that "people only think they're being helped" when I can't stand that same attitude from my pdoc when I tell him I'm getting worse and he says I'm getting better. At some point, I do feel we have to listen to patients. Because the flip side of that is that those of us NOT on meds don't get listened to, because we can't possibly have "insight" unless we're ON drugs...

I do think most people who take psychotropics of any kind live to regret it, if they live long enough... I know I sure regret the 10 months I was on my cocktail, even if, in an emergency/crisis situation, they did bring relief.

Hi Kimbriel!
:)

I agree, Kimbriel, which is why I am very careful not to harangue anyone who says the pills are helping with a lecture to the tune of "No they aren't, they're harming you." I might try to plant a seed or two but even avoid that if I don't think there's any prayer it will be heard. So that's the big difference between me and some shrink saying "Oh no, no, no, you are really sick and the pills are going to start helping you any minute." And yes, I do doubt myself at the moments when I'm confronted with someone swearing they are the greatest thing ever, but usually get over second guessing myself pretty quickly.

Thanks for the discussion, y'all! I see a lot of valid points here.

My own experience is that i was never able to get _anything_ out of therapy without the kick-start i got off of my SSRI. I was completely blunted. The meds were like switching on a lightbulb. (A year later, when i plateaued again, acupuncture had a similar "kick in the head" effect.)

I guess my main problem is with all the generalizations. Again i can only speak to my own experience; i'm pretty high-functioning (or so i like to claim!), and i tend to have reasonably long periods of clarity, so my hope is that i can use the boost from the drugs to gain insight into my own moods and to develop habits that will enhance my health overall; the hope being that when i get off the drugs, i'll be better able to fend for myself. I'm not about to claim that everyone can do this. I can't say with certainty that i'll be able to do it! I was on this same SSRI when i was younger -- it was my very first psych med -- and it didn't stop or even slow my downward spiral then. (I was also a much meeker and more reluctant patient then.)

I've also been on drugs that turned me into a zombie, so i am completely aware of how tenuous the grasp of reality can be. (Even routine immunizations make me go a little loopy! The doctor was like, "No, that doesn't happen." Ok thanks.)

Given that we don't have a very complete picture of the physiology of mental illness, and given the variability between individuals (their physical differences, their emotional baggage, their differing strengths and challenges) and the many issues surrounding diagnosis, how can we possibly make blanket statements?

I have a good friend who was told by a number of professionals that she'd have to stay on her (five) meds for life. She took herself off them over five years ago, and, whatever happens in the future, she has two thriving, healthy little children who were conceived and born in the interim.

(Down to half my maximum dose, and hoping to taper off by summer. =)