November 06, 2009Fort Hood Shooting: Army Psychiatrist Kills 12, Wounds 31, Fuller Torrey SilentWith all due respect to the profession of psychiatry, I need to ask why the "world's most famous psychiatrist," E. Fuller Torrey, and his group the Treatment Advocacy Center are so far completely silent on the tragedy at Fort Hood, Texas. That's where an Army psychiatrist, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, shot up an Army building, killing 12 and wounding 31 before being captured. Maj. Hasan was wounded and is reportedly in the custody of the Army at a hospital. Often, when a person in the mental health system loses it (for whatever reason) and commits violence, Torrey and the fine folks at TAC are quick to post (anonymously, of course) on their blog the details of the crime and to use it as a springboard to argue for forced outpatient commitment and forced medication for people diagnosed with serious mental illnesses and play their vomit-inducing game of arguing that bad behavior by one person diagnosed with schizophrenia, say, proves that pretty much anyone with a "serious mental illness" needs to be medicated into the ground. Now, that a psychiatrist has blown away a bunch of outstanding Americans what does TAC have to offer on its blog? Silence, the telling kind. The kind that says they are hypocrites because Hasan clearly had psych issues (whatever his political and religious issues with America may or may not have been) and yet he did what he alleged to have done. TAC should at least say something. Silence. What does the American Psychiatric Association have to say? Nothing. It's silent, too. It'll be interesting to read what psychiatrists have to write about this bizarre and unacceptable tragedy. For those of you who read this site who are psychiatrists, feel free to email me your thoughts or leave them in comments. Maybe it's not fair to read Maj. Hasan's act in the context of his being a psychiatrist. After all, who's ever heard of a doctor much less a psychiatrist committing mass murder? Almost never, excepting cases of genocidal killers like Nazis Josef Mengele and Aribert Ferdinand Heim and Radovan Karadzic (a psychiatrist. Thanks for the reminder, Qwerty). So inevitably this story will be treated as the multi-layered, conflicted beast that it is and there won't be much moment made of his being a psych doc, except to the extent where one might ask, "Why couldn't someone who did psych evaluations realize he had lost it and seek help?" But, then, Torrey and TAC are never so fair to the people they write about. They never have complete lives and souls, their motivations are never complex. They are just schizophrenics and bipolars, bad boys and girls who didn't take their medicine. Posted by Philip Dawdy at November 6, 2009 12:05 AM
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In TAC's data base of what they call "preventable tragedies", I don't see a box to check off in the search box where a mental health professional of any type (therapists, psychiatrists, etc)can be searched for, I guess this will give them a quandary if they add a new category. http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=251
Person with mental illness killed in altercation with law enforcement. Person injured or killed in altercation with law enforcement. Law enforcement officer killed in altercation with person with mental illness. Law enforcement officer injured or killed in altercation with person with mental illness. Family member killed. Family member injured or killed. Victim has mental illness. Person was homeless. Suicide or attempt. Homicide. Crime against person. They need to add "Doctor/Psychiatrist committed mass murder"! I think the fact that he was a psychiatrist is very ironic, important and indicative of the myth of psychiatrist as expert on mental function either health or illness. Psychiatry is pseudo science because it has no predictive value and offers no "illness" specific interventions. I remind pts and family every day I am no better at prediction of behavior than my trash man. Regardless psychiatry is invested in perpetuating this huge lie. "Why couldn't someone who did psych evaluations realize he had lost it and seek help?" Mostly because such evaluations are done within the context of the evaluator using themselves as a comparative template on which to base their belief as to if the person they are evaluating is disordered or not. There is no fixed ideal of "mental health" and a psychiatrist certainly does not know this. As an intern my attending told me an alcoholic was anyone who drank more than he did. This is really just how psych works in the real world. I have worked with psychiatrists and as a psychiatrist for 20 years. They are certainly as flawed as any other group of human beings and perhaps more so in the last decade as they are no longer trained to practice self reflection and introspection as to how their own emotional experiences play into relationships they have with pts. Now as a group they are drunk on the delusion this is about just mostly medicating broken brain chemistry.We live in a free society with guns. This type of horror will always be a cost of that freedom. Psychiatry is impotent in its ability to predict or prevent such acts and its leadership will never admit it or address it in a case such as this. Posted by: Dr John at November 6, 2009 03:51 AMBREAKING NEWS: Muslim doctor trained to desensitize soldiers who have killed innocent Muslims reaches his limit and kills some innocent Americans. Forgive me, but I would call this "blow-back". Humans are not hard-wired to slaughter massive numbers of strangers; we indoctrinate "soldiers" to do so, though, and, then, are stunned when that training is turned against us. The bottom line seems to be this: kill foreign strangers and you are a hero; kill strangers on American soil and you are a psychopath or terrorist. Am I the only person who sees the inherent insanity of this story and its presentation in the mainstream media? Posted by: Kay at November 6, 2009 06:53 AMI had not been aware of TAC so I just went over to their website and surfed around. It gave me the willies. I did find a bit of humor in the headline saying the mentally ill are a bigger threat to libraries than the Internet, though. I actually feel nauseated right now. Posted by: Miranda at November 6, 2009 07:38 AMIn fairness I don't think we know the extent to which Hasan was "seeking help" yet. He certainly had given it the old college try to get out of the army honorably knowing that he didn't fit there well as a harrassed Muslim being asked to contribute, support and then be on the front lines in an essentially anti-Muslim war. Apparently no one listened or tried to help him find a solution, a way out. I'm not saying this explains his actions in any way, shape, or form, but it's not entirely true to say he wasn't seeking solutions before it got to this point. As for other help, well, we can only imagine what kind of help he might have been seeking from little brown pill bottles. He would certainly have had access to them. The fact that he's still alive does enhance our chances of finding out more on that front I would say. The point is seeking "help" for a psych breakdown in this day and age often leads to worse outcomes, not better ones -- after all that's probably what he was living with every day -- exacerbating the mental ills of those poor guys and gals coming back, not helping them. No wonder he went crazy. Posted by: Sara at November 6, 2009 08:02 AMhttp://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010204837_haq05m.html Similar discussion thoughts in local news in Seattle Wa, a man on trial: Religion, culture and mental illness label Tells his mother, "You should be proud". (of the killings that took place by him) "In the days after he killed one woman and wounded five others at the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle, Naveed Haq telephoned his mother from jail and proclaimed, "You should be proud of me. I'm a martyr now. I'm going to go to heaven," according to a recording of the call played Wednesday during his trial." "I'm proud of what I did," Haq said to his sobbing mother in one call placed from the King County Jail to his parent's home in the Tri-Cities. "I'm a soldier. I'm a soldier of Islam." Haq has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. His attorneys say mental illness prevented him from fully understanding the nature of his actions. They say he should be sent to Western State Hospital rather than prison." (Western State mental institution) "Defense attorney John Carpenter said that Haq needs medications to live without fits of rage, hallucinations and delusions. Prosecutors have agreed that Haq is mentally ill, but believe his mental illness didn't play a role in the attacks." It will be interesting how the Fort Hood Psychiatrist will be discussed, will his religion or culture be on trial? or his profession? or will it come out that the psychiatrist was on psychiatric medications, or had just come off of the medications? Will the psychiatrist plead insanity? Posted by: Stephany at November 6, 2009 08:43 AMThere are three criteria for getting onto Torrey's TAC blog: (1) you have to receive a psych diagnosis If any of these points are missing, Torrey doesn't care about you. TAC's agenda is blatant and absurd. Fuck you, Fuller Torrey! Posted by: Francesca Allan at November 6, 2009 09:06 AMRe: "Torrey and TAC...They are just schizophrenics and bipolars, bad boys and girls who didn't take their medicine."
Another blog discusses the doctor having work related trauma/PTSD: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/11/nidal-malik-hasan-suffer-compassion-fatigue-vicarious-traumatization.html Kevin MD blog author asks, "Did Nidal Malik Hasan suffer from compassion fatigue or vicarious traumatization?" "the condition is defined as “indirect exposure to trauma through a firsthand account or narrative of a traumatic event. The vivid recounting of trauma by the survivor and the clinician’s subsequent cognitive or emotional representation of that event may result in a set of symptoms and reactions that parallel PTSD." What does everyone think of that?
I'd like to know if the killer psychiatrist here was taking any psych meds that may have contributed to his behavior? Posted by: Miranda at November 6, 2009 10:46 AM"It's more complicated than that. For severe mental illness, psychotropic drugs are akin to cancer chemo-therapeutics" Simple answers for your complicated paradox: Psychotropic drugs amount to little more than a chemical restraint of the mind, and are not a targeted or effective treatment. There is no proven biological test to scientifically verify any serious mental condition within the "DSM" diagnostic statistical manual. So you some how make a stand on forcing treatment upon people that have no confirmed biological disease with dangerous and damaging drugs without any proof that a real disease is present or can be abated. NO ONE has ever been cured of severe mental illness by these archaic drugging means. Masking is not by definition a treatment; unless you believe make-up covering a wound, pimple, or wart is considered a cure or preventative treatment. Your cancer analogy is completely ignorant and total fantasy at best; or shall we place cancer patients in a drug induced coma and call it treatment now. Maybe we should use chemo drugs to treat the common cold; since that is exactly where this type of argument leads when taken to its logical conclusion. Fuller Torrey believes mental illness is viral; introduced by cat matter in our environment, and anti-psychotics are anti-viral drugs. If this is the case, (he admits to having no evidence what so ever; but fools buy into this crap out of pure desperation I suppose) then we should demand real science and proof before forcing wholesale treatment in a rational society. To follow along with Torrey, his blind, and dangerous followers; we would be currently suffering an out of control pandemic that would force treatment upon everyone with these anti-viral psychotropic drugs to prevents insanity from rampaging throughout America and the World. I gather it's a tad bit to late at this juncture; since obviously Fuller Torrey and his gang of the insane "drug them all demons" have already been infected with this potent viral disease with a very poor prognosis for any meaningful recovery. Such a truly sad and side splitting day in modern psychiatric history. Posted by: MsPiggy at November 6, 2009 10:50 AMBecause mental health professionals are less accurate than astrologists? Ever read any books on forensic psychiatry? Better results by flipping a coin... Posted by: kimbriel at November 6, 2009 11:38 AMRe: MsPiggy
Since this database exists, people must think it is important enough to be used in some kind of research. In Fuller Torrey's new book he claims there are 3,000 cases. He also includes in this database the untreated 'mentally ill' who are victims of crime. SSRI Stories database has close to 3,500 cases & they do not include any antidepressant treated 'victims' of crime. Also they do not include any cases of people committing these tragedies who were treated with benzo's or antipsychotics alone. There are some cases where the person in the article was taking an antidepressant plus a benzo. There are a few cases where they were taking an antidepressant and an antipsychotic. There are no cases where an illegal drug was involved. I am also sure Fuller Torrey's database was not put together by a volunteer. Posted by: Rosie at November 6, 2009 12:12 PM As I said in my earlier comment I think there's a good chance he did have work related trauma but I wonder if it was really because he was listening to stories of his patients' traumas and experiencing them vicariously OR whether it was because he was practicing using standard protocols of care that were not helping these people one little bit and actually making them worse. That could really make someone pretty sick especially if he didn't understand what was happening. Just saying. . . I don't think this interpretation of events is going to get much play in mainstream media. Posted by: Sara at November 6, 2009 12:21 PMRichard Balon Abstract Background: Self-treatment and treatments of friends or relatives is a controversial issue, tolerated by some and discouraged by others, including professionals. The author studied the attitudes toward self-treatment of depression among psychiatrists in Michigan. Method: A questionnaire asking whether the psychiatrist would or did self-treat for depression was mailed to 830 members of the Michigan Psychiatric Society. Results: The response rate was 68.3% (567 psychiatrists). Almost 43% of responders would consider self-medication or would self-medicate if afflicted with mild/moderate depression. Seven percent would self-medicate or consider self-medication for severe depression or if suicidal ideation became a component of one’s depression. In the past, 15.7% responders treated themselves for depression. Conclusion: These results suggest that a considerable number of psychiatrists would treat themselves for depression, possibly because of fear of stigma or fear of a permanent record, or other reasons. Posted by: Rosie at November 6, 2009 12:36 PMSteveM, If only you knew, what others here have witnessed, and see every single day, if only the drugs WORKED. Posted by: Stephany at November 6, 2009 01:27 PM"... if only the drugs WORKED." That's the thing. For some people these medications do work, and gives them a life back. I've seen this so many times in my volunteer work. They're not perfect, however, and I've never seen them claimed to be. Posted by: Julian Baine at November 6, 2009 02:07 PMLet me premise this following response with the fact that the death of any loved one is both tragic and painful. Most here know this experience personally and are empathetic to the loss and pain that goes with such incident. "Schizophrenia killed my mother" Since you have chosen to pull your personal misery card here. "Take that pill or you will die" argument. Let's delve just a little bit into your bedrock conclusion. Was "Schizophrenia" listed on the death certificate as cause of death. I personally have never heard or seen "Schizophrenia" used as cause of death. (maybe I need to be enlightened) So I might ask what was the actual cause of death? I would honestly like for you to show and prove how this "Schizophrenia" killed your mother? Was she institutionalized, drugged, labeled and treated as diseased. Did she suffer TD or any related effects from so called treatments. these are just the mention a few of the many possibilities including suicide. Now these kinds of interventions do have to power to make it more likely to injure or kill a person of both of body and soul. I hope you have taken that possibility into consideration. I'm not going to say that there are not instances where a person may have to be restrained for dire safety reasons. Yet, chemical restraints are still by far the most intrusive form of control we use today. Now, Is it painful to watch a person you care and love suffer. Absolutely and without any doubt; I have personally been to that place with loved ones. Yet, to add to this suffering through chemical restraint that does not remove or treat the underlying emotional condition in reality, is just adding insult to injury. "Could you look at someone you love who was loving and rational turn truly crazed and hallucinating and say they are not diseased?" Absolutely Yes; I have done this as a matter of fact. "But sometimes those lousy drugs are the only things available to treat an even lousier mental affliction" That is your own opinion and judgment working in that statement. I find it somewhat dumbfounding in truth to say: I know the treatment is bad and doesn't work, but what the hell; let's throw the whole damned kitchen sink at this emotional turmoil whether it's beneficial or not. Just maybe before you think you know better for someone Else's life, and take a turn at playing second to god; don't you think you should consider their rights, opinions, feelings, wishes, other less intrusive alternative possibilities as the predominant factor in actions that will effect their mind and body. Just presenting another view. Take it with a grain of salt if you wish. Posted by: MsPiggy at November 6, 2009 02:20 PM"Since you have chosen to pull your personal misery card here." god, you're a vile [expletive deleted]. of course, no one else here will call you out as such, but you are. Philip Dawdy responds: folks let's not get too out of hand in this thread or i'll shut it down. Posted by: aaron at November 6, 2009 02:34 PMRe: MsPiggy Again.
In regard to Haq and the Jewish Community Center shooting, here is what SSRI Stories says: http://www.ssristories.com/show.php?item=2541 Paragraphs 7 & 8 read: "The Muslim-American was taking six prescription drugs for his mental illness at the time of the shooting, including one, Effexor, that is not approved for treating bipolar disorder and that has homicidal side effects in a small percentage of patients, an expert said." "His doctors say that in addition to his bipolar disorder, Haq suffers from schizoaffective disorder, which includes hallucinations, delusions and grandiosity." http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/108549.html Defense witness: Haq was 'insane' Naveed Haq was insane when he opened fire in a Seattle Jewish federation, a psychiatrist testified. Posted by: Rosie at November 6, 2009 03:26 PMIt's too bad you left, SteveM. Ms. Piggy made some valid points that are worth considering. Posted by: Francesca Allan at November 6, 2009 05:53 PMre:Schizophrenia killed my mother. That is a sophism. Schizophrenia can not be detected by any scientific lab test known to man, it can not be detected as an outside force acting on the human body. Saying schizophrenia killed your mother protects your feelings from the truth. re:Have you walked a mile in the shoes of a distressed family member? Yes as I am that family member. Locking physically healthy people up in a room and forcing mind altering drugs on them is no treatment, it is brainwashing and punishment. The human world is insane in its endless wars, overconsumption of natural resources, and pollution . Who is crazy? Homo sapiens are, as we are not in balance with nature. Posted by: mark p.s.2 at November 6, 2009 05:53 PM
I haven't heard even one psychiatrist say anything like, "we need to screen psychiatrists better." That is what they need to be saying. Posted by: A at November 6, 2009 06:32 PMActually, here is an article from Psychology Today that is on this subject, and it's very strange: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/adventures-in-old-age/200911/fort-hood-shrinks-are-not-crazier-less-treated I've grown up around a relative with the diagnosis of schizophrenia. She has had years and years of the best psychiatry has to offer. They have broken her spirit. I am so tired of hearing if people would just take their medicine. She was loaded up on medicine when I saw her recently. Her eyes were glazed. She constantly smacks her lips because of the TD. She staggered around like a drunk because of all the antipsychotics. Is she living? Well, she's breathing. Job well done. First I would like to state I am NOT defending Maj. Hasan or his actions. One news report I read had an interview with a prominent Psychiatrist. Part of what he had to say concerned the fact that one of Maj. Hasan's duties at Walter Reed was counseling returning troops for PTSD. He stated that hearing all the stories of what soldiers had experience could have had enough of an impact that probably the Major needed counseling also. In my own opinion, this issue is not being addressed in any of the mental health fields. Too often we forget that these so called mental health professionals are just people. Yes, we hold them to a higher standard, as I think we should. But because there is stigma within their own peer group about getting help, I don’t believe they have proper outlets for all the depressing shit they deal with day in day out. Add to that the reports that during his time in the Army, especially after 9/11, he was harassed and ridiculed because of his middle east descent. (Even though he was born in the USA.) I think back to my days in the Navy. Even back then (1979-1989) there was tension and verbal animosity toward military members from asian and middle eastern descent. There were members that had a mistrust so strong it would overcome any fear of potential consequences to their career for practicing open harassment. Why there aren’t periodic screenings of mental health providers to help catch problems before something like this happens…….although I guess they could be very adept at making screeners believe they are just fine. But, as mentioned by others before, maybe it's because of the ego of the profession too. I believe that everyone is so deeply mired in the dysfunctional health care systems we have that we’ll never find an answer for any horrific events like this. "What I don't get is how so many severely mentally ill, and even psychopathic, psychiatrists manage to practice for years without being detected by their peers." Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. My therapist who lost his license was under supervision for years. Fat lot of good that did. The supervisor never detected anything. Then, there was my psychiatrist who had been to jail multiple times even as he was practicing psychiatry. I think he must have done his jail time on the weekends so he could still work at fucking up all his patients. He was/is well liked. Sick. Posted by: Lisa at November 6, 2009 08:27 PMDr. Hasan clearly had PTSD from workplace bullying, bullying about his religion and vicarious trauma from his job. The way the army treated him in not letting him go, but making it clear he was not valued or wanted causes psychological trauma. I would like to know why his colleagues did not have him evaluated. This sort of situation usually has a poor outcome. It often results in suicide. Psychiatrists actually have a high rate of suicide to begin with. He was rated by everyone interviewed as a great psychiatrist yet they said he had a poor evaluation. This is a sign of workplace bullying. It is behind the workplace shootings. Why would they just not let him leave when they throw admitted gays out of the military makes not sense at all. Someone wanted to harm him. The military knows how to inflict psychological damage on people. Hell corporate American does these same tactics. It has been made illegal in several countries. Posted by: Celia Harrison at November 7, 2009 12:59 AM@mark: "Schizophrenia can not be detected by any scientific lab test known to man, ..." Actually, that's not true. There is the set of SCID tests, Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV, that are used to detect psychiatric illnesses. They have been extensively validated in scientific studies. Please don't just make up facts. It confuses people. Posted by: Julian Baine at November 7, 2009 05:22 AM"@mark: "Schizophrenia can not be detected by any scientific lab test known to man, ..." Actually, that's not true. There is the set of SCID tests, Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV, that are used to detect psychiatric illnesses. They have been extensively validated in scientific studies. Please don't just make up facts. It confuses people." Since when is a clinical interview a scientific lab test? There's no *biological* test for schizophrenia in use for diagnosis in the mainstream at this point in history, if that makes the other commenter's point clearer. Clinical interviews for the DSM are reliable and valid in the sense that different interviewers come to similar conclusions and these conclusions predict future episodes. This is the same principle behind that popular news anecdote about victims of rape or domestic violence being recognized as having "preexisting conditions" by insurance companies. They wouldn't be rejecting those folks for coverage if rape and domestic violence weren't reliable and valid predictors for future medical costs. Obviously the basis for prediction there isn't biological, so why should the predictive value and consistency of examining certain behaviors with the SCID be seen as evidence for an underlying condition? No one should argue whether there is such a thing as "delusion" given we all experience whenever we inexplicably suspend judgment in dreams despite the absurdity that takes place in them. No one should argue whether there is such a thing as "hallucination" given the nonconsensual sensory experiences of dreams themselves. The real question is whether there is actually a biological disease which underlies the cases of psychiatric patients exhibiting behaviors labeled as "schizophrenia." There's a reason why people debate this beyond the refusal to accept biological determinism for the mind (I'm an atheist by the way). Someone else in this thread mentioned psychosis secondary to venereal disease. No one questions the basic biological connection in those situations. I could list off a hundred neurological conditions that the vast majority of psychiatry skeptics here would agree can cause psychological symptoms biologically. The problem is that there isn't anywhere near the evidence that is available for those conditions when it comes to a biological cause for the primary psychiatric conditions. It's either misinformed or dishonest to suggest the evidence is in yet for primary psychiatric diagnoses such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder to be considered brain diseases, although this seems to be the dominant popular view in recent times. There may come a time when biological mechanisms for a majority of primary psych diagnoses are identified and explained, but we haven't reached that point yet assuming there are indeed biological mechanisms to be discovered. Posted by: Bryan at November 7, 2009 11:51 AM
The SCID test is merely a written question and answer survey and can't be measured in a medical lab. What's a chemist supposed to do with a written survey? Can the chemist pinpoint schiz in a patient with the survey, similar to a blood sugar test for diabetes? Please let me know how this magic works if someone has done this. There is no biological test concerning supposed mental illness and there never will be, cause its a man made, subjective made up illness, based on speculation and hunches. Taking your foolish logic one step further, why aren't we also measuring the amount of "soul", or "spirit" in an individual by using a written survey? Posted by: jesus c. at November 7, 2009 12:09 PMA survey/interview? Can you imagine having an interview to determine whether or not you have cancer? Bottom line: if these were really verifiable brain disorders, they'd be handled by neurologists. It's just that simple. Posted by: kimbriel at November 7, 2009 12:30 PMRe: SCID Well, it diagnosed my son correctly so he could be put on the appropriate medication and now he is well. The voices, the delusions, gone. I believe in results that I see and SCID worked. Posted by: Julian Baine at November 7, 2009 01:04 PMJulian, Is he really "well" or just under control? And I agree with other commenters. It's preposterous to "diagnose" someone with a "brain disease" using a questionnaire that's subjective at the best of times. The "diagnosis" sticks for life and the treatment, well I don't even want to go where that takes the poor patient. Just who is determining that that diagnosis is "correct" and the medication "appropriate?" I don't think it's your son frankly. As for "validating scientific studies" I've said this before in this comment threat -- there are lies, damn lies and statistics. Just who is doing the "validating" I'd like to know -- drug company consultants? You can push data from "questionnaires" around pretty much anyway you want and come out with any conclusion you want too. You need to be a lot more cynical about what you might be reading in medical journals I can tell you that. Posted by: Sara at November 7, 2009 02:05 PMhttp://diffthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/11/more-saturday-fun.html Great, funny post about this thread over at Different Thoughts blog. Looks like Ms.Piggy has a fan club! Posted by: Stephany at November 7, 2009 02:54 PM"Just who is determining that that diagnosis is 'correct' and the medication 'appropriate?'" I am. He's my son. Posted by: Julian Baine at November 7, 2009 03:37 PMI agree, Stephany and MsPiggy. A lot of us, especially me, repeat ourselves over and over again. Pretty dumb isn't it? What a waste of time. I need a life just like Philip needs a job. I hone certain skills here it's true but not really to the extent I spend doing it! Wish me luck in ceasing and desisting soon! Posted by: Sara at November 7, 2009 05:46 PMSome of the comments here have gotten a little heated, and a few folks with "schizophrenic" family members have perhaps been treated roughly. It's an emotional topic, and I can understand the impetus to believe in these biological theories and the medications that go with them. Most families are struggling to hold onto their jobs and homes these days, and are lucky to have any health insurance. It's not like our mental health system is offering anything in the way of alternative treatment. Drugs R Us! And to SteveM, if you are still around -- my heart goes out to you. My mother was schizophrenic as well. However, I'm pretty sure it was the Thorazine that killed her, through heart disease. (For which there was zero family history.) Posted by: Holly at November 7, 2009 07:58 PM"Just who is determining that that diagnosis is 'correct' and the medication 'appropriate?'" "I am. He's my son." Please copy those words down, take some serious time to reflect upon them, and own each and every one of them; in let's say ten or fifteen years. I gather that ends any further discussion with Julian in this thread. LMAO Though I'm quite sure there are those that will expose Baine's foolishness regularly; as she appears to have come into this forum with the intended purpose of touting the wonders of drugging children in the CABF tradition. Posted by: YAWN at November 7, 2009 09:16 PMSara, no it isn't a waste of time, we have a base from which we write, having personal experience of how psych meds can harm people to say the least. We are, after so many years here predictable, I've said in other comments before we all have a couch or chair in this comment section living room, and we know which person will say what, based on the topic. Antidepressants it's you or Rosie; childhood bipolar it's me, etc. Hey, at least we can laugh about it. Back to my spot on the couch, maybe I will shut up for a while too! PS--Let's not forget Fuller Torrey is pro-forced treatment (drugs) for SZ and bipolar, out patient, and he DOES believe his cat poop virus theory and he believes in HALDOL being an anti-viral medication, though when I asked him in person why, it said he "didn't know", and called himself delusional more times that I could count. I paid NAMI 10 bucks to hear him speak so I could see what the hype of his "expert" wisdom was all about and he gave me the creeps, his influence could be worse if his patent for the under the skin Haldol disk ever gets on the market--the Stanley Research Center might get that one out one day....he believes we are ALL carrying the virus for SZ and BP, due to exposure via cat poop in the air, water and food chain.... NAMI also took 50 bucks a person the night before that speech to eat dinner with Torrey at the NAMI leaders home. If anything, I hope we raise questions for others to think about who may not be commenting but just reading. Having a loved one die or be life-long injured by psych meds is a painful thing to live with, not everyone reading this thread may know what we have been through, or who we have lost. Posted by: Stephany at November 8, 2009 01:51 AMJulian, how do you determine if medication is effective? The reason why I am asking is that my psychiatrist probably felt the same as you did about the 4 medications I was on. At some point, I tried to communicate with him that something was wrong but I felt he blew me off. "I could list off a hundred neurological conditions that the vast majority of psychiatry skeptics here would agree can cause psychological symptoms biologically." As someone who had an untreated endocrine condition for 25 years I can tell you that psychiatrists are so invested in their belief in the "brain imbalance" theory they do not bother to even look for any real physical alternatives. I saw at least 25 different pdocs, recited my shopping list of sxs to most of them without any of them recognizing my condition. I'm lucky I survived my "care" at their hands. I try not to think about the 25 wasted years, the loss of a career I loved, the lost income, the permanent social stigmatization. I dare not forget for one moment that my psych labels put me at increased risk for further "treatment," especially as I age--older woman are especial targets of fans of ECT. The fact my depression was deemed "treatment resistant" (funny how treating the wrong illness doesn't work well) endangers me further. Julian, I'm happy your son's current med is working. As you no doubt know, however, the chances it will continue to work over time are nil. And even if it does work to keep the delusions and hallucinations at bay, you have to know it will cause metabolic, cardiac and other negative sequalae. It's a heart breaking situation to be in, for sure. I wish the "answer" you embrace so happily was as great as you seem to think it is. And I wish I were wrong, wrong, wrong in what I see ahead for you and your son. But I can't think of even one person for whom meds have been a satisfactory, permanent solution for schizophrenia. Not one. A stop gap, yes. A side-effects laden partial help, yes. But nothing like what you're describing over the long haul. I suspect your son's been on this med for only a few years at best. Posted by: Sherry at November 8, 2009 06:16 AMLook. Someone has to make the hard calls. He's six years old and he's better. I'm his mother and that's all that matters to me. Posted by: Julian Baine at November 8, 2009 07:29 AMJulian Baine is a troll, disregard what the person has to say. This is from the Different Thoughts blog, where the person is bragging about flaming this comment section (and referring to an incident where they were banned from my blog months ago) The person can be found in McManamy's blog comment section, as well as Psych Central under Stephen Blau. Anonymous said... -- Julian Baine 08 November 2009 03:51 Anonymous said... Well, I went from Mr. Blue to Blau to Stephen Blau. You added the "Doctor" and then found an existing Dr. Stephen Blau after Googling and actually assumed I was him. Then slandered the poor guy on your blog. LOL. He thought you were an idiot. I don't know if he ever got in touch with you himself. Oh well, at least I have insurance. LOL.
08 November 2009 16:36 http://diffthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/11/more-saturday-fun.html#comment-form stephen blau http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2009/10/27/oprah-the-7-year-old-with-schizophrenia/ http://knowledgeisnecessity.blogspot.com/2009/05/tooting-from-san-francisco-iii-major.html http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2009/07/29/wikipedia-vs-rorschach/ julian baine http://www.furiousseasons.com/archives/2009/11/fort_hood_shooting_army_psychiatrist_kills_12_wounds_31_fuller_torrey_silent.html
AA, you've really nailed it with this: Your symptoms are gone. = My symptoms no longer bother you. In essence, this is what psychiatry is. It's the correction of the annoying or troubling that society finds necessary. It has nothing at all to do with the patient's experience. Posted by: Francesca Allan at November 8, 2009 10:31 AMStephany, Either you or someone else is posting in my name. Philip Dawdy responds: not true. i can see the ip addys. i'm not sure what your game is but you are on thin ice with me. Posted by: Julian Baine at November 8, 2009 11:26 AMJulian Baine, aka Julian Bairn, aka Mr. Blue, aka Mr. Blau, aka Stephen Blau, aka Troll Mr. Who-Ever-You-Are believes they have "played" everyone for a good laugh at Furious Seasons. I have to actually question who’s having the last laugh here Mr. Who-Ever-You-Are; Since by bringing your ridiculous arguments and false comments to this forum. You have actually highlighted for everyone the obvious short comings and crimes’ being inflicted within today’s practiced pharmaceutical dominated psychiatric modality. May I suggest some new and creative posting names that might just work out well for you: “Herb”, “McManamy”, “Gina P.”, “A Fraud Named Julian”, “aaron2”, “X of S”, “Dr. DG” or the less intrusive and always popular “Mr. K Jami.” http://diffthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/11/more-saturday-fun.html Actually, it's just because you silly birds are so easy to play. Remember Stephen Blau? LOL. -- Julian Baine Well, I went from Mr. Blue to Blau to Stephen Blau. Oh well, at least I have insurance. LOL. -- Julian Baine http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2009/10/27/oprah-the-7-year-old-with-schizophrenia/ Stephen Blau at 2:44 pm on October 27th, 2009 LOL! “Even more disturbing that Oprah would choose to highlight this kind of case on an entire show devoted to it. Kind of smells opportunist.” Stephen Blau said... May 20, 2009 8:09 AM http://knowledgeisnecessity.blogspot.com/2009/05/no-more-mr-nice-guy-andy-behrman-is-con.html May 17, 2009 4:43 PM Stephen Blau said... One interesting fact that very few would know about is that Andy went snooping around a fairly well known online site for people with mood disorders (you'd know the one I mean, John), asking if anyone had experiences with Abilify and what they thought of it. The penny finally drops, eh? You might want to search that out, John. I don't know how useful that fact is, though. Stephen Blau (not the doctor) JAMA Study Slaughters Antipsychotics For Kids, Teens Paradigm Oct 28 2009 on this site (or should I say "Sight") where "Julian Bairn" makes this and other disingenuous comments. Actually, just go to online support and discussion sites such as Mood Garden, The Icarus Project or Crazy Boards. You will read scores upon scores of stories about people's struggle with mental illness, the full gamut, and also their struggles with medications. No one has died. Many have vastly improved lives. You suggest they potentially throw away everything they've gained after such struggle just because the idea of these medications actually being beneficial sticks in your craw? This site seems to give little people feelings of false empowerment, and it's dangerous to patients seeking out real diagnoses and treatment. But that topic never comes up. That wouldn't pay as well for Phil here, then, too, I suppose. Philip Dawdy responds: i write what i believe to be true and interestingly there are plenty of people at the sites you reference who loosely agree with me. if you don't like the tone of this site or the commenters' views, then maybe it's time for you to find another outlet. Posted by Julian Bairn at October 29, 2009 12:23 PM __________________________________________________ We can each choose to deal with these kinds of trolls and liars in our own way. I for one will continue to question who is actually playing who in all reality Mr. Who-Ever-You-Are.
with regrets, i am closing this thread. Posted by: Philip Dawdy at November 8, 2009 11:45 AM |
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