Kaiser is absolutely NOT the way we want to go. They are an example of what not to do! Today is the 3 year anniversary of my Daughter's stillbirth, thanks to Kaiser. Their "keeping costs down" is equivalent to an insurance denial. They intentionally misdiagnose and withold care so they don't have to spend their precious money:
http://www.kaiserthrive.org/lehna/

Kaiser "doesn't induce labor" therefore my Baby died. The Kaiser "expert" in my mandatory binding arbitration enforced by kaiser, which ALL kaiser members are bound to, said in his testimony that "Some Babies just have to die."

This is NOT healthcare. They are in business to reap a profit, nevermind actual patient care.

Philip,

Yes, we need stories from California on Kaiser.

Here is a story [partial] from California of a man who was given antidepressants at a Kaiser Center and who then killed three next door neighbors and also killed himself.

http://www.ssristories.com/show.php?item=2743

Paragraph 2 reads: "Lorenzo "Sol" Silva had been prescribed antidepressants by doctors at the Kaiser Medical Center where he was being treated, but he had reacted badly to the drugs in the past two weeks and at times had acted depressed and paranoid, relatives said."

Paragraphs 8 through 10 read: "Yesterday, police said doctors had prescribed antidepressants for Silva after the diagnosis of cancer -- a diagnosis that relatives believed was incorrect."

"'He was apparently upset about his medical condition,' said homicide Inspector Michael Johnson. 'The family said he had been diagnosed, possibly misdiagnosed. When they told him, he flipped out -- that was their words'."

"Johnson said a check of Silva's past revealed no criminal record."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paranoia, Depression Dogged Gunman - Cancer diagnosis: Family said he acted erratically
THE SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE - October 12, 1999
Author: Jaxon Van Derbeken, Chronicle Staff Writer

The 62-year-old security guard who shot three upstairs neighbors to death in San Francisco before killing himself had recently learned that he had incurable pancreatic cancer and had "flipped out," family members told police.

Lorenzo "Sol" Silva had been prescribed antidepressants by doctors at the Kaiser Medical Center where he was being treated, but he had reacted badly to the drugs in the past two weeks and at times had acted depressed and paranoid, relatives said.

Police are investigating that and other factors in trying to determine why Silva, a guard on the night shift at San Francisco International Airport, went on a rampage Sunday afternoon at his two-story home in the Ingleside District, near San Francisco City College.

Silva took his .357-Magnum revolver upstairs and killed Noel Ridual and his wife, Josephine, both 28, and Maria "Ola" Marquicias, 32, before turning the gun on himself, police said. Although family members said he was a gun collector, a search by police turned up only the one firearm.

The Riduals' 2-year-old daughter, Jessica, was wounded in the shoulder, apparently by a ricocheted bullet, police said. She was being treated at San Francisco General Hospital and is expected to recover.

I totally agree with the position of this Kaiser patient, which is noteworthy since I am a medical provider. The Kaiser reputation (as stated by some peers who are employed by Kaiser) is to keep costs down at nearly any cost. Patient volumes are mandated; treatment options are constrained; there is little professional autonomy. The NBC News presentation was grossly skewed in its assessment of quality medical care under the Kaiser model.

If I had a dime for every time I heard that Kaiser prescribes antidepressants to their patients, when they are not psyche cases...

Someone just recently told me that Kaiser gets money from the Government everytime they treat their patients with antidepressants or psychiatric counseling. It is also a way for Kaiser to later be able to turn around and discredit the patient if something goes wrong. They paint them out as a loon.

And this is what they call healthcare. Sickening.

Thank Ronald Reagan. When he was governor he closed most of the state run mental health clinics and fired a number of social workers. When he was president he closed almost all of the federal clinics and brought in managed care so that corporations could make money on people's sickness. Mr. Kaiser was his good friend and contributor and "guess what happened" this was the beginning of Kaiser Permantante. They generally like healthy people and do not like to treat sick and old people. I have tried on numerous occasions to get help for whistleblowers that had KP and they never really got much help. The doctors generally do not respond like they would if they were not in managed care.

As a former [Kaiser] Permanente physician and one who has studied them since over ten years, I can assure you that Kaiser is not a safe place to get medical care. The "salaries" of the physicians are simply just a part of their for profit "draw" - the latter derived from getting half the profits of the HMOs. The less care given, the more secure is the physician's retirement plan.

The electronic medical record (EMR)in the NBC pictures is actually designed to limit care through tell physicians what to do (Smart Sets), tracking them for expensive choices, and otherwise trying to limit what is done. If fact, Kaiser physicians try NOT to find diabetes when not forced to do so (See thier Gujidelines document.)

The typical Kaiser partner physician gets about $20,000 a month, a 25% benefits package, a free house down payment if staying ten years, 40% of salary for life if staying 20 years, and free medical care. All they have to do is make sure they never say or do anything to stop Kaiser's expansion. And they must limit care with a smile.

But, Kaiser is not expanding. It is losing patients - some 30,000 last year. Anyway 75% is always California, so it is not really a national solution. It has given up on New York, North Carolina, Texas, Missouri, Kansas, Utah, etc. And it does not want to try any new state.

But Kaiser DOES want to market its electronic chart so as to make back its $2 billion in lost security values (note Bahamas address). So it will do an say anything to achieve such a franchise type sale.

How NBC took this story without checking with any sophisticated critics is a mystery. I hope it is not because of a trade for some of its $45 million a year in advertising expenditure. That is what gets Kaiser into other media spots. Well, that and direct payments and awards to reporters through the Kaiser Family Foundation.

Charles Phillips, MD FACEP
Fresno, California

To learn more read "Patients often struggle to access to medical records" where I helped the USA Today in 2008 with a story full of Kaiser interactions. Or go to KaiserPapers.org.

IMO, there is nothing wrong in managing medical care in a way to save money. Doctors with their own practice want to squeeze the most out of insurance companies, which in turn squeeze their customers. Then, customers seize any chance to legally sue doctors and insurance companies over any mistake and lawyers cash in on litigation. The whole system is going crazily out of hand.
Also, whenever I hear somebody complaining about health care, it reminds me of people I see at the mechanic shop. They complain about the car, car maker, roads, cost of fixing car, etc. Neglecting the most important factor of all, that they are the ones driving, speeding, lazy to shop around. It is your health, you should be looking after yourself, watching your food, exercising, researching your symptoms. More to the point of the article, electronic health records are almost like second opinion supplementing your doctors opinion.
Putting a cap on medical expenses is good as it curbs greed of all entities in the system and since operations are transparent and is audited by the government, even if there are mistakes then the aim should be to improve upon that health delivery model.
More info on Kaiser Permanente
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Permanente

Passerby,
Puhleeze... none of us are foolish enough to buy into your spin. We've seen it up close and way too personal.

The NBC report wasn't about Kaiser specifically - note the comments from Robert Bazell, NBC chief science correspondent - http://dailynightly.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/03/04/1820273.aspx
"But the reason we are doing the story about Kaiser tonight is not to promote Kaiser itself."

"What makes these programs inviting for health reformers is that it is far easier to control costs in a system where doctors work for a salary and have no financial incentives to order extra tests or make more appointments. "

I would note that the Office of the Patient Advocate of the State of California ranks all HMOs in their ability to deliver quality of care and access - here's how Kaiser does - http://www.opa.ca.gov/report_card/hmorating.aspx

Now give equal time on your show to those who know how Kaiser really works (or should I say how it doesn't work) or did NBC and Kaiser strike up a great advertising deal to their mutual benfit? Something like we'll air the segment and tout Kaiser as the greatest thing since peanut butter and jelly if Kaiser spends millions of dollars advertising on NBC? It seems ethics is not only missing in healthcare, it's missing in the news industry as well. You are in essence telling people to trust their lives to a firm which profits from withholding care not providing it.

There is a difference between limiting costs in a humane way and providing incentives for limiting costs. The profit incentives need to be removed both from over-prescribing and under-providing care. A medical system as a business model is going to make people sick.

Iwas an employe starting in 1985 and then again in 1989. I was fired twice because I was hurt on the job. But I wasn't the only one. Firings were unheard of until kaiser started getting rid of their long term employees in the early 90's and has been ever since. Employees who guaranteed care wwre denied twice by thier medical helathcare plan and through workers comp even though Kiaser controlled the comp claims. 6 suicides from 1990-1992. An employee mrder on the job in 1994 and another suicide in 1994. Employees overmedicated while on the job Rx'ed by kaiser doctors and then these same employees either are now destitute and with out their rigthful eilthcare benefits. Some ahve been exposed to multiple and deadly chenicals and contaminates and no one in government is going after thsoe crimes. Social Security and mMdicare pays for what kaiser owes to these employees. These employees can't even get their pensions! How many of these employees were older, and minorites just like their outside patients. MANY OF THEM!Hospice is another name for euthanasia!
It was and still is all about saving money. It is and financially expedient and advantageous to deny care at all levels.
We were told that by Kaiser high up administrationin 1987, "we had to do more with less" (like Edgar kaiser told Nixon) and the other mantra was "It's not in the budget".
IF Kaiser didn't have billions above their costs, or didn't receive a yearly blank check from Medicare(and no accountbaility on how they spend it) then maybe I'd beleive they are a non-profit.
The kaiser segment was an advertizment for them by NBC, or other wise, it wouldn't have included,
1.Doctors do not receive financial incentives. 2.SOME patients have complaints against kaiser.
3.The hospital background looked better then any of their regular hospitals,muck like a mvoie studio prop.
4.There wouldn't have been all the info about kaiser's doctors electronic communications with patients.
5.The AMA backs kaiser like it backs ACOEM, the psuedo occupational medical based evidence to deny workplace injuries and also the organization that is co-sponsired by pharmaceutical and chemcial companies.
6. Other healthcare industry plans would've been included in the segment.

I find it hard to believe that NBC put out such a segment and tried to call it news. So much misinformation is presented that it is difficult to know where to begin to correct it.

Kaiser and the for profit Permanente is not a well running or well run organization/system.

The physicians are deeply entrenched in running the business side of the intertwined Kaiser and Permanente corporations' and all physicians are encouraged to become MBAs or leave.

Reports put out by the California Office of the Patient Advocate are highly questionable as either former employees of Kaiser or contractees of Kaiser are running that office and always have.

Look a little further about Kaiser and the 1930's program that was quickly cited. Anyone that does finds a not too pleasant story. The cannot rewrite history.

The Kaiser of today is not the one of thirty years ago when the Kaiser family was actually involved and in many towns the system did work. It never was up to the standard of private practice physicians though. It did fill a need for segments of the population that wanted the convenience of a WalMart and the costs of a McDonald's.

Today the premiums they claim are low often get you to pay out several co-pays with every visit. A co-pay to see the nurse, a co-pay to get your blood drawn, a co-pay to take an x-ray and a co-pay to get a prescription. Then they tell many to come back the next day or week to pay another co-pay to find out the results. The system doesn't always work out so well for those on a limited income. So that premium isn't really much of a savings when you realize how much money you are actually spending.

The Kaiser of today is a very mean corporation that thrives off of government contracts and has the largest number of fines with the highest amounts in the California Department of Managed Health Care's history.

The same can be said for the states that asked Kaiser to leave their states and never return.

As for the Kaiser glorified computer data system; it is a creative corporate identity theft scam. It is a glorified billing system that is easily altered at any time by staff. Your medical data can change over and over and you can't do much to correct it.

No one would complain if it were truly what it is advertised to be, but it isn't.

Next time news people should look a little harder into the AMA and see how many of it's branches are actually controlled by Kaiser physicians and learn how many physicians take pride in saying that they have no affiliation with the AMA of Kaiser of today.

I also strongly suggest in the interest of presenting truthful news and preventing innocent people from harm that reporters think and research before they present misinformation such as this news segment that appears to be nothing more than an advertisement for Kaiser and the for profit Permanente. Because if the press misleads the public (that has little or no personal knowledge or experience with Kaiser and the for profit Permanente) into supporting the marketing for Kaiser to control and manage a National Health program they will be greatly responsible for the harm that will come to numerous innocents that trusted.

Kaiser is the same corporation that pays many thousands of dollars per week to newspapers, television and radio stations, magazines and other forms of media to advertise their wares. I have to question where the loyalty of the press really lies. Is it with the advertisers or with the readers?

Did anyone ever notice how the companies that have few complaints are not out there spending patient money on advertising and bragging how great they are?

Spend some time reading the documentation on Kaiser and the for profit Permanente at:
http://kaiserpapers.org
and then also read:
http://www.kaiserthrive.org

I find it hard to believe that NBC put out such a segment and tried to
call it news. So much misinformation is presented that it is difficult
to know where to begin to correct it.

Kaiser and the for profit Permanente is not a well running or well run
organization/system.

The physicians are deeply entrenched in running the business side of the
intertwined Kaiser and Permanente corporations' and all physicians are
encouraged to become MBAs or leave.

Reports put out by the California Office of the Patient Advocate are
highly questionable as either former employees of Kaiser or contractees
of Kaiser are running that office and always have.

Look a little further about Kaiser and the 1930's program that was
quickly cited. Anyone that does finds a not too pleasant story. The
cannot rewrite history.

The Kaiser of today is not the one of thirty years ago when the Kaiser
family was actually involved and in many towns the system did work. It
never was up to the standard of private practice physicians though. It
did fill a need for segments of the population that wanted the
convenience of a WalMart and the costs of a McDonald's.

Today the premiums they claim are low often get you to pay out several
co-pays with every visit. A co-pay to see the nurse, a co-pay to get
your blood drawn, a co-pay to take an x-ray and a co-pay to get a
prescription. Then they tell many to come back the next day or week to
pay another co-pay to find out the results. The system doesn't always
work out so well for those on a limited income. So that premium isn't
really much of a savings when you realize how much money you are
actually spending.

The Kaiser of today is a very mean corporation that thrives off of
government contracts and has the largest number of fines with the
highest amounts in the California Department of Managed Health Care's
history.

The same can be said for the states that asked Kaiser to leave their
states and never return.

As for the Kaiser glorified computer data system; it is a creative
corporate identity theft scam. It is a glorified billing system that is
easily altered at any time by staff. Your medical data can change over
and over and you can't do much to correct it.

No one would complain if it were truly what it is advertised to be, but
it isn't.

Next time news people should look a little harder into the AMA and see
how many of it's branches are actually controlled by Kaiser physicians
and learn how many physicians take pride in saying that they have no
affiliation with the AMA of Kaiser of today.

I also strongly suggest in the interest of presenting truthful news and
preventing innocent people from harm that reporters think and research
before they present misinformation such as this news segment that
appears to be nothing more than an advertisement for Kaiser and the for
profit Permanente. Because if the press misleads the public (that has
little or no personal knowledge or experience with Kaiser and the for
profit Permanente) into supporting the marketing for Kaiser to control
and manage a National Health program they will be greatly responsible
for the harm that will come to numerous innocents that trusted.

Kaiser is the same corporation that pays many thousands of dollars per
week to newspapers, television, radio stations, magazines and other
forms of media to advertise their wares. I have to question where the
loyalty of the press really lies. Is it with the advertisers or with
the readers?

Did anyone ever notice how the companies that have few complaints are
not out there spending patient money on advertising and bragging how
great they are?

Spend some time reading the documentation on Kaiser and the for profit
Permanente at:
http://kaiserpapers.org
and then also read:
http://www.kaiserthrive.org

Vickie Travis
Former Caregiver, Eldest Child and Daughter of Adam Wesley Arnold
http://www.kaiserpapers.org
http://kaiserpapers.info
President of The Managed Care Reform Council
http://www.themcrc.info/

Having insurance at Kaiser Permanente is as good as having no insurance. My friend had Kaiser dental insurance through her work, and brought her son into Vancouver, WA, office for his annual check up. The boy has multiple sclerosis and his other dentists gave him general anesthesia so he would be still for treatement. But those damn fools at Kaiser refused. My friend asked them what good is it to have dental insurance for her son if they can't treat him. They didn't care. They told her to stop calling.

It is very disappointing to hear all of the above negative comments about Kaiser here. The TV news story's MAIN POINT was that at Kaiser, we don't have to do what I call "appointing for dollars". If a Kaiser member has a need, we can often help them over the phone or via email rather than making them "come see us" so that we can bill for the office visit. Outside of Kaiser, the only way a doctor gets paid is by having the person see them face-to-face. We all know from our common sense that about half of all of our medical needs do not need an office visit with a doctor to get help. Examples: "my problem that I saw you for a month ago is no better" -- at Kaiser, we can talk with you via phone or email and get the next steps going without making you take time off work and sit for 4 hours for us to order that MRI or do the referral to a specialist. Other examples: "I'm not liking my blood pressure med, it makes me sick" or "my diabetes is not in good control." Both of those issues can be handled over the phone or via email. But outside Kaiser, you have to come in and sit down face-to-face with the doctor about both of those issues so the doctor can bill your insurance company -- they do not get paid for phone or email.

The practice of medicine anywhere is imperfect and fraught with error. Kaiser does a better job of documentation of everything, so our errors may look more frequent -- but as a doc who was in outside practice in several locations before coming to Kaiser, I can tell you, bad errors are made every single day in every single office and hospital and at least Kaiser's electronic records and IT systems allow everyone to work hard at Kaiser to avoid errors.

Kaiser Doc, let's talk more about medical records, shall we?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-04-29-medical-records_N.htm

And while we are at it, let's talk about the rigged kaiser arbitrations and the judges they "hire" to oversee these "fair and timely arbitrations"...

This was the judge in my case:
http://www.iswface.org/images/Judge-arrest-prostitute.jpg

Of course he decided in Kaiser's favor, I don't know of any that he decided against Kaiser.

And how about that fantastic EMR system they've got in place:

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/feb/15/business/fi-kaiser15

I hope that anyone who visits Kaiser's Wikipedia page, as suggested by one of the posters above, will take a few extra minutes to peruse the history of the Talk page. What you'll find is an abundance of desperate attempts by Kaiser employees to censor any negative facts about Kaiser from making into the main entry. A few even resorted to cyber-stalking editors who wanted to tell the whole story. Such a "model" organization!

I've had Kaiser for 20 years and have definitely received my money's worth. Many surgeries, diabetes, asthma, hepatitis C - you name it, i"ve had it. I pay for my Kaiser policy myself, being a free-lancer with no group coverage - and it's not cheap. But I have been very pleased with Kaiser. The few times I've been given referrals to doctors I don't like, I ask for a referral to somebody else - no problem.

One does have to be proactive, as does anybody with any insurance company. If a treatment doesn't help, I'll ask for a second opinion - and sometimes I'll even pay to see a doctor outside of Kaiser. I've received mostly state of the art care by physicians who work for Kaiser because they want to doctor, not run a business.

Ethically challenged kaiser Permanente remains silent about Dr. Timothy Wild's horrific medical crime

THIS IS ABOUT A CRIMINAL
HIS NAME IS DR. TIMOTHY WILFRED WILD. HE IS CHIEF HEAD & NECK SURGERY
AT KAISER PERMANENTE,VACAVILLE, CA.
THIS INTENTIONAL CRIME WAS COMMITTED UNDER KAISER PERMANENTE'S GME PROGRAM - GRADUATE MEDICAL EDUCATION.


HIS CRIME IS SO VIOLENT AND HORRIFIC;IT DEFIES BELIEF.
PLEASE, SEE FOR YOURSELF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMXN1wUaQnU


" EVIL PREVAILS WHEN THE GOOD PEOPLE ARE SILENT OR TAKE NO ACTION."
JUPIRENA STEIN

I am leaving Kaiser as a doctor, and happily so.
I am a specialist and see every day patients who are hurt by their Kaiser Primary care doctor (PCPs)

The PCPs are encouraged to treat disorders, injuries, and problems for which they have no to minimal tranining --a "wait and see if it gets better" approach to medicine. The patients are often forced to wait months to years before they are allowed to see a specialist.

As a specialist, I would see patients who were beyond fixing--usually old injuries because the primary-care doctor refused to allow the patient to see a specialist.

Kaiser is very political. As a new doctor there, I was told how to manage patients. I had no autonomy and was constantly overlooked and critized for treating patients outside their protocols. I was forced to perform procedures and then essentially boot the patient out of our clinic without any type of follow-up.
It was awful. I, myself, like to follow a patient to ensure they get better. My Department Chief, would tell me that I could not have patients see me more than once. He didn't care if they got better or not.

Unfortunately, Kasier was my first job out of residency. Everyone thought that I was so lucky, At first, I thought I was fortunate to find such a great job, but as I worked there, I realized how Kaiser truly does not care about the patient. At Kaiser, you are a number. It's "mass medicine"
I worked incredubly long and hard hours. Sometimes even moreso than as a resident and I didn't get paid anymore.

Its unfortuante that my very first experience out of residency was at Kaiser. Its unfortunate that medicine has become this.