There are people doing things that work.

One organization that has people working with Soteria like models are still getting good results.

http://intar.org/

listen to this audio documentary of some of the members of this group:

http://intar.org/?p=4

and that's old school stuff...marry that with newer holistic recovery methods and there are dozens and dozens of things one can do that help people move on with their lives...

there are real and viable alternatives.

Philip, why don't you ever give any air time to them here?

it's all about bitching about the system but no suggestions for changes...

I've got a load of crap on my site and a large and growing collection of recovery stories on my site...

people recover given the proper supports and care...without meds.

come on i simply cannot cover everything in one post. and those soteria model things are so few and far between that they almost don't exist in a global sense. but yeah.

Posted by: Gianna at February 10, 2009 10:17 PM

Well what are the other options? Meds is the most effective solution for most people.

define effective.

Posted by: NiroZ at February 10, 2009 10:40 PM

I'm sorry. These men don't 'have' schizophrenia. They have a social identity of schizoprhenia, a pariah label. That is all they have. None of their brains have ever been subject to single biological test, yet you bandy about the term as if its a biological fact. A specter they 'developed'. I'm sorry, this is shockingly incredulous and just as much of a received view as the one you're berating the media about. I don't deny they are in MASSIVE pain and under MASSIVE chemical attack by drugs of course.

If these young men, when the first instance of distress happened when they were young, which always has environmental factors or substance issues, were treated with compassion and not state coercion, jackboot forced drugging violence and tranquilisation... and if they were NOT told they were hopeless, diseased for life pariahs who could never rely on their free will so long as they lived... which they all ARE told by shrinks... then the body wouldn't be floating in the water... and you wouldn't be coercing the man at the homeless shelter to poison his brain with Seroquel. A choice you rationalize to yourself and us as being better than swinging his dick out in the street homeless. I agree, but it isn't his 'brain disease he was born with' that made him get so low.

Do you admit that massive stress, combined with illcit drugs can cause psychosis? Yes.

What could be more stressful than living in mortal terror you are going to be insane forever? or at the 'drop of a hat'? And shrinks tell people this with impunity. That is terror tactics, living in terror is the most stressful life there is.

What could be more of a pickled neurology similar to illicit drug users than a neurology constantly being fucked with by guesswork polypharmacy?

The perfect storm of years long massive terror, fear and STRESS, the perfect storm of neurology under attack by tinkering and neurotoxic guesswork.

What you get, my friend, is a man who can't house himself and wants to show his dick to passers by.

When you break someone's identity when they are a late teen early 20s whatever, when you fill their head with ABSOLUTE TERROR and at the same time reduce cognitive function with guesswork neurotoxins... what you get, is a fucking mess, that starts to look a lot like a mysterious force of nature, a 'disease' has taken hold of the man's life.. wrong.

What has taken hold of the man's life is inhuman dogma, ideology and guesswork, combined with unmitigated hubris at the hands of those telling our young the have 'permanent lifelong brain diseases', shrinks who have no diagnostic biotechnology. This is what creates the chronic mental patient.

They are a product of MEDDLING that is done to them. We are a product all too often of the meddling that is done to us in all aspects of life, why should this be any different? Because no one has ever seen their neurology.... so there is WAY more evidence of meddling and suggestive internalization of terrifying mantras bereft of hope that the shrinks sell our young people.

The lived experience of the uncertainty created with shrinks smashing all hope for the future, the lived experience of being at bottom of society, a feared pariah, the stress of this, and the lived experience of your neurology slowly melted down by neurotoxic rubbish.

That is what happens, en masse. That is the key, and isn't it funny, how none of you can prove me wrong.

Society doesn't want to face that fact it literally TORTURES most young people who get committed and labeled for life, with terror tactics, and harmful cognitive function destruction by guesswork drugs.

The sheer human misery, years, decades long in millions of people that this mistaken worldview has created will not be acknowledged... because you're all to heavily invested in your ideology to face the fact that about as much pain as the holocaust has been created over the recent decades by these practices. It's just too massive to admit at this point.

I'm sorry. I just don't see how anyone can sit there with a straight face and tell me that a man floating in the river who:

a) Was when he was young and distressed trusted and internalized doctor's claims (without any biological test) that he had a brain disease for which there was no cure.

b) Lived for a while with the stigma of being the stereotypical 'hair trigger psychotic' who society should corral and fear will suddenly rape and kill you

c) Lived with his loved ones changing their view of who he was, what he was made of, what his future was, what 'disease' he would pass to his children (again in the absence of any genetic test)

d) Lived with the unneeded hurdle of having to interact with the world through a chemical synthetic haze of Zyprexa or Seroquel, dopamine agonists for his dopamine system that was never tested by science at all.

e) Lived with this haze of EFFECTS in all his interactions with his father, girlfriend, boss, even in his dreams while sleeping, like a drunk driver at the wheel of life, under the influence of mind altering drugs, for no good reason, from the get go.

f) Internalized the hollywood psycho dynamic, the drug company funded mainstream mental health dynamic and gradually lost all hope. Was actively prevented and censored from hearing about real stories of recovery and the mechanics behind them, which invariably involve flushing out all psychiatry dogma.

g) Lives in mortal terror of a bunch of lies he's been sold by 'physicians' who've never even so much as come near him with a stethoscope, let alone measured his neurology in any objective way, nor his GENES!

h) On the night he stops taking the toxic drugs, he lies awake wondering if 'what they said was right' about how he will 'definitely' go insane as soon as he removes the 'prophylactic' drugs. He mulls the thoughts over and over, he's been trained by the shrinks to fear certain death should he ever let go of the guard rail that is psychiatric drugs... the stress is too much, he's off the meds but he's also fearful and anxious from what they've told him to EXPECT. The power of suggestion is a killer.

i) Fuck you God, why'd you give me this disease. If I can't have a worthwhile future, and if my 'now' is gonna be a toxic haze of drugs, I'll just fucking jump off this bridge. The pain is too much, the conundrum to hard to figure out.

j) If he'd said to the shrinks the minute they told him was Schizophrenic... 'how the fuck do you know? show me the test you moron' and walked the fuck out of there with confidence in his future and with hope intact. And FREELY dealt with his distress as a consenting adult in a manner which he saw had merit, not that the STATE and FAMILY forced on him, he'd be alive today.

k)Prove he wouldn't be.

You honestly think the one who has blood in their hands is 'mother nature'? You think nature did this to him? Keep telling yourself that. Others, others who get paid six figure salaries to label and drug and drive a mercedes are the ones who did this.

Posted by: Lynnette at February 11, 2009 12:45 AM

Of course this is a tragic story, but I cringe when I read the parent believes all the son needed was to take his meds. (and not have a so-called delusion that told him to jump into the lake as a result).

On 550mg. of Clozaril daily, I can safely state here that my daughter hears voices while on Clozaril, and she has ran down roads because voices tell her to, while on meds and off meds.(according to her).

She's been on all of these antipsychotics; Haldol, Zyprexa,Risperdal,Melleril, Seroquel, Abilify and Clozaril.

If those worked she'd be cured, if those worked she'd dare I say, be in college with the rest of the 21 yr olds in her graduating class and achieving her own personal dream.

Yeah, I want something better too. I think it's possible to take the drop in programs that Sound Mental Health and Comm Crisis Clinic offer and extend them to people on and off meds in the Puget Sound area.

These programs are limited, rare and space is too small, offering little for many people and the mandatory "med compliance" won't allow anyone in any off med situation (even calm spirited, no agitation)to attend and receive peer support or a place to go for the day and just be.

I know, 2 yrs ago,I drove my daughter to one assigned by a case manager for weeks while she was off meds and needing a place for support where peers could have possibly helped..."come back in 2 weeks when you are on your meds...doesn't Clozaril come in long-term injection form?", said the case manager.

"No.", I said.

There are people successfully living off of medications with schizophrenia; they email me all of the time encouraging me that my daughter can succeed, though still hear voices like they do, have catetonic moments like they do, many things...off meds.

I understand the quandary Philip writes about at the shelter...it's meds or the streets, and quite regularly one hospital my daughter resided in discharges patients to homeless shelters for lack of housing. How do I know? I saw the women discharged myself, one sobbed on my shoulder she didn't want to go to a shelter again. The mental health court people I've networked with asked me to lobby Olympia for housing funds.

These are just a few stories in the area where the young man with schizophrenia drowned in Lake Washington. There are 1000's more all over this Country, who need individualized treatment plans and they don't always mean medication required.

As always, I say if these meds were efficacious, why do they suffer symptoms?

My daughter suffered more symptoms on Haldol and high doses of Zyprexa one hospital put her on---and she ran straight down the center of a high-traffic road hearing voices and screaming covering her ears---ON MEDS.

My heart goes out to the parents of the man who died, but I don't agree with the belief that meds would have prevented his death.

Posted by: Stephany at February 11, 2009 01:42 AM

Adding to my comment above, this topic is so sad and hard to deal with, that I wish more people would help find solutions, real solutions. Medications don't give quality of life in many cases, the person is alive and eating, sleeping and showering while med compliant at group homes, and just how much of a life is that?

Re-reading the title of this post, caused tears to flow, because it truly is the saddest story.....

Posted by: Stephany at February 11, 2009 01:50 AM

IIRC, thanks to the good work of Margot Kidder, Seattle/King County has statutes in place that mandate healing for the mentally ill. There are 29 known medical reasons why a person can present with schizophrenia - see http://alternativementalhealth.com
for an article and for one called the Extraordinary Walker Exam.
ALL patients have the RIGHT to proper medical workups. No patient with a niacin deficiency or copper excess will be cured by Thorazine or - bless us - one of the "newer medications".

Posted by: Lilly NC at February 11, 2009 02:25 AM

Must admit, that I see Gianna's point here. Especially when I read NiroZ's comment: "...what are the other options?" And you're halfway there, when you say: "...when are we going to have a revolution in addressing schizophrenia (...)?" The options are there. It doesn't even have to be something "new". The options have been there for centuries, actually: Moral Treatment. And Soteria, of course, more recently. There are lots of options. But people don't know, because it's hardly ever mentioned. No one expects a novel. Or a treatise. A sentence or two would be fabulous.

However, reading NiroZ's comment I wonder: maybe the word "Soteria" doesn't really exist? Invisible, somehow? I mean, why ask what the other options are, when one of them, and in addition one that has been proven to be far more effective than drugs: S-o-t-e-r-i-a, just got mentioned??

And Lynnette: Spot on. BTW: Loren Mosher wasn't especially fond of the term "schizophrenia". Me neither. As long as we ourselves identify as "mentally ill", as having "schizophrenia", "bipolar", whatever, or being "schizophrenic", "bipolar", whatever, we beg for the kind of "treatment" we get today.

Posted by: Marian at February 11, 2009 03:25 AM

I would only add a note about Rufus May in Britain, one who "has" schizophrenia himself, works with people without the use of medication.

He's gotten quite a bit of notariety and controversy in the UK after a Channel 4 documentary done on him. Maybe you've mentioned him on this site before, but here's the link to him and the doc:

http://www.rufusmay.com/

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5B6D685236A79C41

Posted by: Zachary R. Taylor at February 11, 2009 06:44 AM

I confess I was very surprised to hear Elyn Sacks' detailed description of how meds helped (and failed) her but even more surprised to hear about how psychotherapy helped her even more. Probably most people who frequent this site have read her book "The Center Cannot Hold" but if you haven't it's pretty illustrative. Obviously it doesn't describe everyone's experience (probably most people diagnosed as schizophrenics aren't Yale law school candidates, just like most people aren't Yale law school candidates) but I thought it was a good starting point, and addresses some of these issues.

Posted by: Kim at February 11, 2009 06:51 AM

Lynette - "prove he wouldn't be": you have no idea how many times this has been tried. If a person actually has this disorder, a bunch of positive thoughts is not gonna un-do it. How the process ACTUALLY goes in the real world is so far from the scenario you are suggesting that it is not even funny. I have known a few people with schizophrenia in my personal life, plus have been able to get to know dozens in professional life. dozens where I myself actually have been able to dig deep into their medical charts and get a decent picture, and where I have been able to know, and communicate with, their families - the people who saw this illness emerge, and who, along with the loved-one with this disorder, TRIED to do what you have said: deny the disorder, have positive thoughts, attempt to defy the psychiatrists, etc.

It doesn't work.

That misguided plan has probably been tried by half, if not nearly all, people who have schizophrenia emerge in early adulthood.

I note my experiences so you might open your mind and take an honest, really look at this disorder. It is terrible. It has been well-documented since well-before any antipsychotics were developed.

My opinion used to be just like yours. I recall being in my udergraduate psychology course, and hearing my professor, a psychologist, present and discuss "schozophrenia," and genetic evidence such as twin studies, etc.

The whole time I believed things really similar to you, and I did not believe my professor. I believed my professor held the "medical model" wrongly, and that we should just appreciate these people with their "different" views and not try to "force" them to fit into society. Blah, blah, blah.

Then, I started working in metnal health, and met people - young and old -with schizophrenia, and met their family members.

Then, I started attending NAMI meetings and hearing more stories from everyday, plain-old people - people with schizophrenia, and their family members.

I discovered my former views were noble, romantic, and foolishly mis-informed.

BTW: this was all around the time that "crack" was just emerging, and long before the "atypical" antipsychotisc, so these cases were not caused by the crack epidemic, nor by the atypical epidemic.

Plus, I have seen the old-line antipsychotics work. People's thinking gets more organized; they no longer have sensory experiences that are not truly happening.

You can argue that maybe I just could not perceive their different, but "true" or "valid" reality. But I will tell you that I am absolutely sure that I am not part of the FBI. Absolutely sure. Yes, someone meeting the criteria for "schizophrenia" accused me of being FBI. A shot in the booteus maximus and two days later, she was back to being a pleasant, loving wife with no crazy thoughts.

Sorry, that's the truth, Lynette.

I love movies like Harold and Maude, or Edward Scissorhands, etc., where "we" just need to have a more broad view of what is "OK" and what is "abnormal." Sure. I agree. I have read R. D. Liang, etc., arguing that the family is to blame. Sorry - I believe the family is to blame for FALSE diagnoses of bipolar, ADHD, etc. Trying to push off irresponsible parenting with a mental disorder as an excuse. I hate to hear that, and do what I can when it happens in the lives of people I know (basically, half of teens nowadays).

But I have seen schizophrenia. It is sadly predictable.

Antipsychotics work.

They do not work well. They fail to cure schizophrenia, they fail to fully address the symptoms of schizophrenia, and to the degree that they do work, they are nonetheless plagued by terrible side-effects - I have SEEN people's muscles lock up (thick tongue, stiff jaw, etc.) - technically, "extrapyramidal symptoms," and have helped conduct the immediate response to alleviate this scary side effect. I know the drugs are, to say the least, unpleasant.

But I have seen people go from incoherent to coherent. In many cases.

There is physiological evidence that such a disorder as "schizophrenia" exists. Twin diagnostic concordance studies. Twins-raised-apart studies. Visualizing and measuring ventricles in the brain. Years ago, once video cameras became popular (1980s), it became extremely common for a child's one-year birthday party to be videotaped. As this video-taped generation of kids grew up, schizophrenia emerged in one percent of them (a quite stable incidence rate). A type of eye movement disorder - saccadic eye movement - could be seen in the eye movement of these children at the age of one-year old.

What "stress" and "labeling" did these one-year-olds have? Should they have said "F you" to the video camera?

There is a new type of genetic testing emerging: chromosomal microarray analysis. Plus more new techniques - not only are they simply superior in clarity, they are simply different in what they do. This line of research seems to be indicating an even more clear picture concerning the genetic errors in schizophrenia.

Cystic Fibrosis is not just a matter of some kid "choosing" to be suffocated by mucos, or suffering because he or she has been "given" the cf label.

Your brain is part of your body. It can develop in a "wrong" way, just as your heart can, or your lungs can, etc.

Some kids are born with six toes on each foot. It happens. It is not provoked by some foot doctor giving a "supernumerary phalanges" diagnosis.

Even more convincing: people who get some toxins, or anoxia, or otherwise have their brain get damaged, can have some symptoms similar to schizophrenia. Some, but not all. Similar problem, but not same, and similar symptoms but not same.

You can take LSD and get similar types of problems.

Lynette, you can explain LSD by saying it truly is a gateway to see more dimnsions of the universe, or you can just accept the likely explanation that it disrupts regular brain function, somehow through messing up neurotransmitters.

Lynette- it is insulting to people who suffer with schizophrenia, and their families, to say that everyone just needs to straighten out their attitude.

Please share your experinece with people with schizophrenia, so we can see the evidence upon which you base your misguided theories. For me, I now know that I was once ignorant.

Go attend some local NAMI meetings. Ask these family members what it was like as the schizophrenia emerged. It will rarely, if ever, be like your scenario. In fact, it will be the opposite.

Go volunteer at a local mental health clinic. Pay attention to the cases of schizophrenia in the teens/young adults, as the disorder emerges. See how much your thery fits.

Yes, the meds are not great. But they work, to some degree, and they are better than allowing the person to wander around, starting fights, cutting off parts of their body, shooting at unseen demons, sacrificing their children, walking disoriented in busy traffic or rail lines, stopping their car in the middle of traffic and just walking off without perceiving the other swerving drivers, etc.

In the old days, it was often better to amputate a limb rather than suffer death by gangrene. Now, wehave better treatments. But that does not mean that in the past, those amputations were wrong at the time. Death or amputation.

It is sad that this is kind of the choice for someone with schizophrenia. But until the knowlege and treatments advance, that is where we are at.

And, tragically, the people with schizophrenia now, and the cases to emerge in the future, are dependent upon the scurrilous pharmaceutical companies to develop the better treatments. Partly sad because those companies often seem more eager to find easy money by expanding the range of who might be able to buy their pills, rather than being sharply focused on something as terrible as schizophrenia.

Seroquel for sleep? Waste of time and talent. It is true that the treatment of schizophrenia is woefullyinadequate and needs to advance. But it won't advance by some ignorant, disproven, theory about being nice and respectful to people to prevent schizophrenia.

Posted by: MedsVsTherapy at February 11, 2009 07:45 AM

It breaks my heart reading a story such as this. Why people go to such lengths to deny to themselves that they have a mental illness and have bought into this all-meds-are-evil nonsense. Another life wasted.

Posted by: County at February 11, 2009 08:06 AM

As a diagnosed schizophrenic I would say the medication does not work. Imagination as in ideas and thoughts come from somewhere in our prefrontal cortex, the same spot psychiatry wants to turn off or shut down with psychiatric drugs.
I believe learning to live with the symptoms is better than trusting a chemical to control illegal or unwanted behaviour.

Posted by: mark p.s.2 at February 11, 2009 08:23 AM

2006: Alaska outlaws forced psychiatric drugging.
http://psychrights.org/States/Alaska/CaseOne/MyersOpinion.pdf

Posted by: Lilly NC at February 11, 2009 10:29 AM

THANK YOU MARK for what you wrote here, and for being a voice where clearly, it is sorely needed!!

This thread infuriates me for one reason: I wish I didn't see or hear so many people with schizophrenia tell me the meds don't work and how the drugs prevent them from playing the piano or guitar, etc. I WISH I could believe the meds work, but I cannot ignore real people and their real stories.

I figure and assume any one calling people anti evil med people don't have a clue about what anyone like Mark, myself or Philip is talking about: reality.

Posted by: Stephany at February 11, 2009 10:29 AM

Great post, Philip, more stories please.

Lynette, you're right, ideology sucks, including yours. Because ideology is about ideas as opposed to sensate reality it blinds the ideologue to facts in evidence. That's why you can come away from a story about a poor suffering soul who did every fucking thing you prescribe and self-destructed as a result, and take his story as a springboard to wank about how much better it would be if people did what you say. Which he did. Which you ignore. His life or your ideas, what do you want to talk about? How about using his life to further your ideas, the word for that is exploitation. You privilege your own vain banal woo to an actual human narrative, I consider that evil, but I don't think you do this because you're a bad person, but it still makes you a self-obsessed internet wanker.

Rest in peace, Larry Stephenson, all condolences to your family and loved ones.

Posted by: flawedplan at February 11, 2009 11:03 AM

Peace be with you Phillip

I haven't time to read all the comments yet, but agree with Lynnette at 12:45.

Having worked with houseless people for a long time also, I've been amazed at the shift is type of houseless persons I meet. I've seen many houseless go from an eccentric jester to a so-called schizophrenic. The food available to most houseless people is either from FEMA, or stale sweets from stores. Most houseless don't get enough food and proper nutrition. Most houseless are exposed to the elements. No heaters, sometimes no shelter, or even no shade. Police aggression and harassment is a part of every houseless persons life. People are taught to be cruel, and incompassionate towards the unhoused. And, people are convinced to funnel all aid through non-profits, who spend the vast, vast majority of this money on salaries.

The amount of stress placed on the houseless by being a "criminal," a "ward," and a "product" creates many of these problems, and always makes existing ones worse. Add to that the fact that "homelessness" is considered a mental illness for all practical purposes (my bet for the DSM V), and drugs are forced on then almost as a matter of routine practice.

I might point out also that Hud, Veteran Affairs, and DHHS all found that only 2% of all houseless suffer from "mental illness," yet locally everyone of our communities claim it is much, much higher.

love eternal
tad

Posted by: tad at February 11, 2009 11:08 AM

Is there any light to be seen through the forest of those intrinsic providers of evil?

Oh to have the Power to say what is normal and what is not, to say this one is flawed with a label and doesn't function properly in my set world; so they must be shunned and medicated into compliance. Must be nice to sit on those pedestals on high able to judge the constitution of others. To be so righteous as to use coercion and the courts to force inclusion into your dismal world unto others of your judged less worthy.

Those nah Sayers are always against self determination and dignity; because that would take away their power and place them in equal footing with the afflicted. Must feel so grand, omnipotent, and god like to be able to intrude upon another your standard of normal and inclusion; whether or not it comes with removing dignity and humanity from those you abuse.

NAMI not unlike like psychiatry has it all right and perfectly worked out in your twisted little acceptable behavioral world. Do the words LEAST INTRUSIVE and SELF DETERMINATION rings any bells. How About the words HUMANE OR DIGNITY! Does that get you down off your Ranting superior mount?

I know where your coming from; I have seen your kind throughout the annals of history with examples clearly highlighted in Germany, Russia, Uganda, or the Killing Fields of Cambodia before; remove the true unique individual and person, place a label and tether them to your rope and leash, and then punish and dope them into your box until they become less human and the entombed living, or just maybe they finally decide life just isn't worth living in the world you created for them.

Yikes, with people and professionals like this; who really needs a God or morality! You have that market all cornered and wrapped up with a nice bow around it. Because you’re the all knowing right one of your determination of what is done and forced upon another of difference. How completely humane of you right?

Suicide is Sad without an argument, dehumanizing and taking unyielding power over someone is just as Sad, if not worse; because then you actually get to create a constant living Hell for those deemed less than.

People of so called uncompromised constitution happen to commit suicide and even murder each and every day. They don’t receive as many headlines as those labeled freaks though? Maybe we all need to take those powerful mind bending drugs to numb us up; so that we are protected from ourselves and especially from the likes of you.

In Your Face

Posted by: In Your Face at February 11, 2009 11:45 AM

As one of the more "pro-med" commenters on FS, I've slowly come to believe that the testing, marketing and prescription use of the atypicals is something close to evil. In its purest, distilled, metaphysical form.

Yet Haldol and Thorazine are clearly not the answer, either. If there is no effective antipsychotic drug (at least, without horrendous side effects comparable to chemo for cancer), I can see why a non-medication model for treatment should be experimented with.

However, it must be said that in a society that stigmatizes the mentally ill, I see no groundswell for Soteria-type programs around the country. (Which is an inconvenient truth that certainly goes a long way toward explaining the mourning father's comments.) Speaking of which ...

Marian:

I could not disagree more that we stigmatize ourselves by acknowledging our mental illness. (As if "creative maladjustment" is any more accepted a euphemism.) The main body of society stigmatizes all those who are "different," out of people's fears about breaking out of conformity.

With all the new research coming out, I may be like Philip -- maybe I don't really have bipolar type II. But I certainly know I'm "different," personality-wise. And as long as that's the case, I'm going to be an outsider (sometimes by choice, mind you) no matter what label myself, doctors or loved ones use.

Posted by: Larry at February 11, 2009 11:51 AM

Stephany: good point. But consider this: have you known a person going through a "decompensation," though a "psychotic episode"? Then, communicated with them about it once the "episode" was over?

Generally, the deeper a person goes into psychosis, the less they have a memory of that span of time.

In simple terms: they do not remember the episode.

I don't know why this is. But I and others involved with such a situation, except for the person with the schizophrenia, all perceive the same phenomenon. As it gets more severe, the memory seems to gradually get weaker, and/or erroneous (typically increasingly interpreting things according to whatever delusion(s) are present, and at some point it truly seems as if memory is not there for some span of time. To the point that a person with schizophrenia will declare that they never were [wherever], never did [whatever], etc.

Well, who is right? I am banking on me and the multiple other witnesses, versus the person who recalls sketchy memories of Jesus, angels, FBI, Brandon Lee, angel wings, angel chips, being followed by a network of taxi cab drivers (notice how they are everywhere when you start looking for them), voices from table fan, etc.

So: if the person experiencing a psychotic episode does not remember this well, it seems to me that they have limited ability to judge how off-track they were in their thinking and behavior, plus are not aware of what inteventions might have led to a steady, predictable return to lucidity, memory, "orientation" to person/place/circumstance, etc.

So, Stephany: with respect: video this descent into psychosis, if it recurs, for a friend or family once you urge them off meds.

I know that people WITH auditory hallucinations, if they gain "insight" into this phenomenon, i.e., it is not reality-based, i.e., there really is NOT someone monitoring your thoughts or urging you to kill yourself (or your demon-possessed children, etc.), can develop the skill of ignoring and/or accepting/not acting upon these voices.

I know people who claim that they do ignore or accept. But it is limted to people who are actually aware that they have these problems, and that it is not really true.

If a mosquito bites me, and my wool scarf keeps making me think that I am getting bit repeatedly, but I know I am not truly getting bitten, I can resist the urge to jump around looking for the 'mosquito' that is no longer there.

Fleas, spiders, etc. do that to many of us - keep us thinking that they are still bugging us, but we can avoid reacting as if the bug was still there because we understand there is no bug.

If a person with schizophrenia has learned to not be moved to action by the command-hallucination voices, that does not mean that there is no such thing as schizophrenia, or that this person does not necessarily needs meds any more. That may be the case for some people, and not for others.

So, I am skeptical if someone says that antipsychotics are generally not necesary to manage schizophrenia. Esp if they have schizophrenia, since they may not recall what was going on - at least through the eyewitnesses - multiple simultaneous other observers such as family members or treatment team - all observing the same person in the same time frame.

I just think it is not really something for any of us to push our views until we have been a part of the phenomena of schizophrenia - to see such things as poor insight, relapse, no insight, violence toward loved-ones, response to medication, tardive dyskinesia, dry mouth, weight gain, etc.

Posted by: MedsVsTherapy at February 11, 2009 11:51 AM

MY DAUGHTER, is the one who told me what she was having for hallucinations and delusions.Specific details and how it was scary, etc.

She remembers EVERYTHING. Don't lessen her as a human being any further!!!!

I wouldn't write anything about this at all if I wasn't her mom and witness to it all and even so, I walk a precarious line writing anything at all because I am not her!!

She has suffered enough, so have her peers!!!

Posted by: Stephany at February 11, 2009 12:35 PM

MedsVsTherapy;

I believe you are well meaning and are good intentioned; but your premise maybe way off track here. I have worked with countless patients with psychosis, aka non-conformist constitution, aka schizophrenia, aka judged to be living in non-reality based state.
I have personally not found this distinct lack of reoccurring recall you are referring too in reality.

But then I also do not personally have this condition/constitution. Maybe you would like to refer to, and ask a true expert like Mark p.s.2; since he actually has the lived experience to either verify or debunk your theoretical stated conclusions.

In Your Face

Posted by: In Your Face at February 11, 2009 12:53 PM

re: MedsVsTherapy "there really is NOT someone monitoring your thoughts"

Yes there is, it is yourself.
Ideas are just ideas until you act on them.
One must judge the right or wrong.
remember the symbolism of the angel and devil on each shoulder?
People decide what is the right thing to do with an idea.

When you dream at night can you have conversations with people in the dream?
Scientists speculate we are always dreaming.

The sane can somehow block their dreamworld-imagination from leaking through into the conscious world better than the "hallucinating" mental patient.

Posted by: mark p.s.2 at February 11, 2009 01:06 PM

the more people with people with schizophrenia, the more sane people who suffer from it would be.

Posted by: outside in at February 11, 2009 01:12 PM

MedsVsTherapy: I'd so like to see the "physiological evidence that such a disorder as 'schizophrenia' exists." The twin studies are highly flawed, and you know that. They don't prove anything. Brain scans of "schizophrenics" actually show the brain damage done by the drugs. It's no secret anymore. What else have you got? Any blood tests? Any genes found? Chromosomes? You know, certain chemicals, like in "drugs", can change chromosomes. Oh, and one-year-olds can't have stress? Can't be victims of abuse, mistreatment, dysfunctional communication? Where do you live?? It can't be in this world.

Well, what I find far more disturbing about your comment than the scientific inaccuracy - or should I say ignorance? - it displays, is that you, in the best NAMI-manner, objectify "the schizophrenics". Them - and us. With "the schizophrenics" not only being "different" in their behavior, but being "a slightly different race than we are." (L. Mosher) Like the chimps at the zoo.

And under these circumstances, it obviously isn't necessary at all to truly listen to "them". As "they" are brain-diseased anyway, and thus not capable of "rational thought". All you would hear if listening, would be nothing but a disease, right? So clearly all you can do is to "dig deep into their medical records" (i.e. listen to the "experts") and listen to their (NAMI-)relatives to get a "decent picture". A picture? Narcissists get a picture. Of their fellow human beings, whom they objectify in order to distance themselves from these. In order to (ab-)use them: 'Oh, I'm so much better and worthier an individual than these non-persons are!'

But it's not a good idea to say this aloud. People might think, you're a condescending ego-tripper. Pity is the ultimate disguise for arrogance, and actually the opposite of compassion. So, let's pity these poor diseased souls. - Your comments here are drenched in pity. To a nauseating point.

Posted by: Marian at February 11, 2009 02:50 PM

MedsVsTherapy: P.S.: They do not remember?! If people tell you, they do not remember, it only signals one thing to me: they don't trust you. And, probably, they do right in this.

Posted by: Marian at February 11, 2009 03:40 PM

"Go volunteer at a local mental health clinic. Pay attention to the cases of schizophrenia in the teens/young adults, as the disorder emerges. See how much your thery fits..."

Do not assume that people here know nothing about schizophrenia. I have grown up around it. Those antipsychotics you so highly praise left my relative permanently & severely disfigured. She has TD. Have you ever seen a severe case of TD? So, now it's not just her mind that's f'd up thanks to treatment her body is f'd up, too. Do you ever wonder what kind of an impact that has on someone? What kind of quality of life do you suppose she has on those wonder drugs? I've seen her on meds & I've seen her off meds. On meds she became obese, permanently disfigured, drugged into a stupor, robbed of any joy and drive to do anything. These wonder drugs SUCK. Off meds, she is psychotic.

Her option, according to the current psychiatric viewpoint, is be psychotic or take antipsychotics. What a fabulous choice!Meanwhile, mental health professionals continue to sit back & say oh, it's their lack of insight that makes them stop taking the meds. If only they weren't so sick, they would understand that they should be glad to be obese, have tardive, and sleep all day. Give me a break.

Posted by: Lisa at February 11, 2009 08:35 PM

"She remembers EVERYTHING. Don't lessen her as a human being any further!!!!"

How am I lessening your daughter as a human being by stating my observations, concerning reduced insight or flat-out amnesia, based on being familiar with many people going through a psychotic break?

If she doesn't want to take meds, then let her stay drug-free.

Posted by: MedsVsTherapy at February 11, 2009 09:36 PM

Marion: this is quite a set of words you put in my moputh: "you, in the best NAMI-manner, objectify "the schizophrenics".

Quotation marks are used to indicate that the words between them are pretty much exactly what the supposedly quoted person said.

Where did I say "schizophrenics"?

The rest of your response becomes irrelevant when you figure out that I did not say that.

Also, I find it hard to believe that you would actually declare that the family members, such as NAMI family members I mentioned, throw the label schizophrenia on their family members just to marginalize them. That has not been what I have seen from these family members.

And that is a really sick thing to presume about these family members, like Stephany.

Posted by: MedsVsTherapy at February 11, 2009 09:46 PM

Marion: I don't understand the point here:
"And under these circumstances, it obviously isn't necessary at all to truly listen to "them". As "they" are brain-diseased anyway, and thus not capable of "rational thought". All you would hear if listening, would be nothing but a disease, right?"

Are you saying that if I listen long enough to psychotic rambling, then something sensible will emerge out of the word salad?

Or that if I just listened with respect, the person would start to feel better?

Look, I have done that. For hours. Polite, and attentive. I have news for you. 1. the conversation goes nowhere. A psychotic person goes from one topic to the next, and the connections between topics are not there. 2. the next day, the person does not remember me or the conversation. Despite the quality time we spent in rambling, one-sided conversation.

I was working in settings where we did not have any authorization to force medications, so there have been many examples I am personally familiar with where the people with the delusional, disordered thinking were drug-free.

Please tell me your experience of sitting there listening to disjointed rambling, and the benefits that the person gained from having an attentive audience. Or what you might have learned.

By the way: I am definitely sure I am not in the FBI.

Posted by: MedsVsTherapy at February 11, 2009 09:59 PM

Lisa: I am confused by your comment about my post, "Those antipsychotics you so highly praise."

Where did I "praise" antipsychotics?

Posted by: MedsVsTheapy at February 11, 2009 10:01 PM

Marion - in response to your comment that "Brain scans of "schizophrenics" actually show the brain damage done by the drugs."
this one's for you:

Fannon D, Chitnis X, Doku V, Tennakoon L, O'Ceallaigh S, Soni W, Sumich A, Lowe
J, Santamaria M, Sharma T. Features of structural brain abnormality detected in first-episode psychosis. Am J Psychiatry. 2000 Nov;157(11):1829-34.

"OBJECTIVE: Structural magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) studies that focus on first-episode psychosis avoid some common confounds, such as chronicity of illness, treatment effects, and long-term substance abuse. However, such studies
may select subjects with poor short-term treatment response or outcome. In this study, the authors focus on structural brain abnormalities in never or minimally treated patients who underwent MRI scanning early in their first episode of psychosis. METHOD: The authors examined 37 patients (13 medication naive, 24
previously treated) who were experiencing their first episode of psychosis; the mean duration of symptoms was short (31 weeks). These patients were comparable in age, gender, handedness, ethnicity, and parental socioeconomic status to a group of 25 healthy comparison subjects. A three-dimensional, inversion recovery prepared, fast spoiled gradient/recall in the steady state scan of the whole brain that used 1.5-mm contiguous sections was performed to acquire a T(1)-weighted data set. Human ratings of volumetric measurement of brain structures were performed with stereological techniques on three-dimensional
reconstructed MRIs. RESULTS: The patient group had significant deficits in cortical gray matter, temporal lobe gray matter, and whole brain volume as well as significant enlargement of the lateral and third ventricles. Structural deviations were found in both treatment-naive and minimally treated subjects. No relationships were found between any brain matter volumes and positive or
negative symptoms. CONCLUSIONS: Structural brain abnormalities were distributed throughout the cortex with particular decrement evident in gray matter. This feature is consistent with altered cell structure and disturbed neuronal connectivity, which accounts for the functional abnormality of psychosis."

Posted by: MedsVsTherapy at February 11, 2009 10:12 PM

Medsvstherapy, didn't you say you used to work at West Oaks hospital in texas? (Yet another psych hospital that's been in the news for abusing patients?) Are you saying the hospital didn't have the authority to force meds on people? Because that's not true. Also, I've been in that hospital (not as a patient) & I can assure you there isn't a single staff member sitting for hours listening to patients. Staff sit at the desk & jabber about their weekend.

Posted by: tx at February 11, 2009 10:14 PM

i'm not a NAMI member.

Posted by: Stephany at February 11, 2009 10:17 PM

People- I posted such long notes because I just knew that people would be coming up with any sort of criticism of me that they could, simply due to my point of view:

I believe there is some kind of brain disorder or brain disorders called schizophrenia, and I base this on a great range of experience in various settings in mental health, plus people I know in my personal life.

That's it.

What more can I say. If you believe that this so-called disorder is nothing more than simply people who have "different" views (you are the FBI, etc.), well, carry on. I just disagree. Partly because I am very sure that I am not in the FBI. And also because I failed to hear the voices, I failed to perceive the conspiracies, I could not see the angel chips, etc.

So, sue me: I believe in a condition I have seen all too many times, and it is sadly similar in most cases.

Also: I have seen this condition get better when people took antipsychotic medications. I have seen people with histories of these terrible symptoms stay symptom-free with the right circumstances, which in my experience have included antipsychotic medications. Plus, as people have said, low-stress environments - which really only serves to confirm the idea that schizophrenia involves some deficit in coping with the stresses and demands of the world.

Sorry, but that is what I have seen.

If you have romantic notions that these Syd Barretts and Andrea Yates's are just mis-understood poets, then more power to ya.

It is not so funny anymore when the drowned babies are discovered. But fine call her a misunderstood hero if you want.

I know that the meds are terrible. I said that before, and I will say it again. We knew in the early 90s that some led to weight gain. I told that I have seen lots of these severe side effects including TD and neuroleptic malignant syndrome. I am trained to administer AIMS assessments. What can I say. Other than my gangrene analogy. This is what I saw. I have known scores of people very well who are diagnosed with schizophrenia. Sorry. That has been my experience.

I am not saying anyone is less-than-human. Biederman, Nemeroff would be at the top of my non-human list, not the patient I have known. We have laughed. We have been happy to spend time with each other. et cetera.

I myself do not like to sit there listening to a psychotic person rambling on. That's just me. Sorry. I don't like to sit there and listen to drunk people ramble on, either. But that actually has some value, as the drunk person is spending time in their rambling pointless stories while sobering up, versus getting out on the road and driving. And sometimes the stories are funny. I really remember nothing humorous or insightful from a psychotic person's ramblings.

I do own one of Roky Erickson's poetry books. I do find that entertaining. But none of those poems are very long. Sorry, that's just me. Ted Kazinsky's manifesto was at about the edge of what rambling I can tolerate.

I understand that the Fairweather Lodge concept is out there. Frankly, I do not have any personal experience with such places. Post some references of decent research and I will look it over. I mean decent research, not a book explaining a bunch of anecdotes. Plus, make note that these idyllic settings are only able to handle a narrow window of patients. So, sorry to burst that romantic notion. but maybe I do not know enough. Share some resources with me.

Get ready because I am highly skilled at evaluating the quality of research studies. I am doubtful that I will discover that these psychosocial lodges help people with schizophrenia live drug-free. But maybe I am wrong. So post some data-heavy articles or books.

And on that topic: no one study is ever "perfect" for defining some physiological proof that there is a disorder called "schizophrenia." However, what is out there, in toto, is pretty darn convincing. Hundreds of original-data studies. Sure, twin studies have limits. As do all studies. But at some point, the evidence crosses some line and it is simply foolish to declare that "schizophrenia" is solely a label used by society to get rid of "different" people. Because, from what I have seen, there are millions of "different" people out there, and no one really has a problem with them. But when someone is shooting wildly because of aliens, or the FBI, or the angel chips, or someone decided to drown all their children to protect them from the Devil, frankly, that person has crossed the line for me, and needs some help.

Sorry. That is my experience.

Frankly, I believe it would be much easier to make the case that lower back pain does not truly exist, compared to schizophrenia.

I don't think someone with schizophrenia is not worthy of respect, value, esteem, etc. I do think that it is a measure of our society to see how we work to figure out solutions, and provide whatever care we can, in a humane manner.

A few posters have frankly insulted me as a person, not just my views.

You don't know me.

I do not think that I have said anything indicating even hinting that a psychotic person, or a person with schizophrenia, is less-than-human.

You don't know that in all of the mental health, social work, psychology, and psychiatry settings where I have worked, patients, family members, and coworkers across the board have noted that I am more caring and humane and respectful then most employees or trainees, whatever the case, in that setting.

I mostly appreciate that feeback from patients, and from their family members, who have a terrible time with these situations. Trying to sort out the truth from the BS, and trying to figure out who they can really trust. That praise is nice. I frankly could not care much less whether some supervisor is impressed because I have never showed up at work or at some trainnig site in order to impress a boss. I am not wasting my time with that.

To those of you who have insulted me personally: you don't know this, but you have the wrong impression. Way wrong. I am that one persom at that clinic or hospital that you feel was the single person who was really human. This feedback always surprises me, because I wonder what everyone else is doing. but there it is - in thank-you notes, performance reviews, letters of recommendation, etc.

So, let's stick to discussions of issues, ideas, evidence, etc. That way, you won't by mistake insult and denigrate one of the few people who has been singled out many times as truly caring, truly helpful, and truly honest.

Really, it is a good rule of thumb: don't insult people personally on these internets. So, let's share some more opinions, experiences, etc.

But I am done with this line of blog-plus-comments, cuz I guess the topic is just too emotional for people to act decently toward each other.

Philip Dawdy responds: good points. if i may disagree on one thing, there have been threads over sz that have been far more emotional than this one, filled with more intense insults. nonetheless, i would like to ask commenters to not engage in personal name calling and skip terms like, well, nazi is an example from the past. i think everyon knows what i mean. i don't want to have to get involved in moderating a thread any more than this, so please keep it respectful--and let me know by email where it gets out of line--or i'll close the thread. thanks.

Posted by: MedsVsTherapy at February 11, 2009 11:02 PM

MedsVsTherapy,
You just wrote an aggressive comment but you don't realize it, do you?

Off Topic:
Philip Dawdy responds
I believe that this "answers" Philip has been posting are not a very good idea.
But this is me.

Posted by: Ana at February 12, 2009 01:25 AM

MedsVsTherapy: 1. I myself was "sitting there", and vocalizing "disjointed ramblings", if I said anything at all. 2. I've also tried to be in situations, where I was "listening to disjointed ramblings", vocalized by others.

The thing is, only people who are capable of seeing beyond the end of their nose, and who aren't afraid of facing the truth about themselves are capable of seeing the other. Loren Mosher was able to do this, Rufus May is, Daniel Mackler is, Bertram Karon is, Daniel Dorman is, and so on, and so on. You obviously are not. You should find yourself a job where you don't get closer to helping people in existential crisis, than the check-out assistant at the supermarket gets. You'd do these people an invaluable favor.

I'd like to hear, how you explain the recovery rate of Soteria. I'd like you to explain, how it is possible, that people - and I am one of them - not only start to feel better, but actually fully recover, only and solely because someone listens to them with respect. N.B.: I have never popped as much as one single pill.

On the other hand, no, don't explain it to me. Of course each and every one of those who make it alone by being listened to with respect, was misdiagnozed, or they're still ill, they just don't know it, right? Yes, sure...

Brain scans: I don't doubt, that everything we experience in our mind is reflected by our brain chemistry. The question is, whether it is a certain brain chemistry that causes certain states of mind, or whether certain states of mind cause a certain brain chemistry to show up. Ever heard of neuroplasticity?

Especially your most recent comments on this thread prove to me, that I'm right: You're not capable of establishing a genuinely trusting, respecting relationship with another human being. And yes, you are lessening Stephany's daughter. You are lessening every single person, who is going through a crisis.

I'm sorry, that's what I see.

Posted by: Marian at February 12, 2009 02:34 AM

Meds vs. Therapy

I am a person who knows someone with schizophrenia. As much as I despise what meds have done to me, if I am really honest in thinking about this person's life, I would say initially, the benefits outweighed the risks. But the point has come where that is no longer the case and I greatly fear for what will happen to this person due to the side effects of these meds.

The problem I have with your viewpoints it that is is meds come heck or high water and there are no issues of gray. Since I feel this person's life is in jeopardy, wouldn't common sense dictate that he/she should have a trial off of meds especially since this person according to studies is in an age group that has a better chance statistically of succeeding without meds?

What is really sad is if this person really wanted to come off of meds, there is no one who would offer assistance. Or if they did, the taper would be so fast that withdrawal symptoms would be confused as a return of the illness thus sentencing this person to life on meds and an early death.

Instead of branding us crazy anti psych zealots, you need to start focusing on the fact that people's lives are at stakes and many times, the cure is worse than the disease. This concept that antipsychotics are the best we have is just not helpful.

Remember, the same philosophy was used to justify hospital infections as the cost of doing business. Now, hospitals realize differently although there still is a way to go.

Soteria House has been found to be very helpful. Some vitamin therapy I believe like Niacin stop psychosis. Of course, even supplements aren't side effect free but isn't it worth a shot?

Anyway, while you're branding us extemists, people continue to die from these meds 25 years too young. That is the issue.

Posted by: AA at February 12, 2009 04:20 AM

MedsVsTherapy: You might, to a certain extent righteously, accuse me of not respecting you, since I indeed don't give you a chance to understand other than asking you to, unprejudiced, check out on alternatives like Soteria.

To illustrate what you regard as a meaningless delusion, a meaningless symptom of a brain disease, you mention someone who insisted you were with the FBI. And no, you are not with the actual FBI (I wish you were...). Nevertheless, as soon as you start questioning someone about their experience (their crime) with an attitude that unmistakably signals to the person, that, if they tell you the truth, you will do whatever it takes to get them "treatment" (i.e. punishment), you are with the "FBI".

The vast majority - I'd even say all - of the people you work with (or more like against, I fear) has a history of being repeatedly abused, invaded, disrespected, stepped on, and controlled. They have a history of being denied to develop their own personality, their thoughts, actions and feelings have been discredited, devalued, disrespected, their trust has been betrayed. They've been forced to deny themselves.

How do you force someone to deny themselves? If they aren't yet, you make them dependent on you. Completely. Then you monitor them closely. Their every move. Like the FBI monitors every move of a suspect. And then, finally, you strike: "You're a criminal, you're under arrest." Or: "Your thoughts, feelings, and actions are all wrong. You can't get anything right. You're worthless. I'll have to punish you" (battering, abuse), and/or: "I'll have to control you, so you don't make a mess of it all again."

If it's the actual FBI, that's after you, you can say: "F**k you guys, I do whatever I like." And you can run from them. The symbolic FBI is worse. Since your life depends on it. Your life depends on doing whatever the symbolic FBI asks you to do. Even if that means, that you have to completely deny yourself, your true self. Even if it means, that you have to commit a symbolic suicide. No chance to escape. The only chance you have, is to scream out in despair in a symbolic way: "symptoms".

And then the mh system steps in, and, once more, silences you: "You have a chronic brain disease. We won't respect you, we won't listen to you, because all you express is the product of a disease." The system's Orwellian logic. What is the last resort for someone who has tried virtually everything to make people listen to them, without success? Of course: actual suicide.

I don't say, these people's parents are to blame. But dysfunctional communication patterns and relationships are a fact. Abuse is a fact. Battering is. Physical and psychological violence is. To a far greater extent than acknowledged by society. Our society itself, our culture, is thoroughly violent and abusive. Wherever our modern, western civilization leaves its footprint, it is a footprint of abuse, exploitation and destruction. The abuse, exploitation and destruction of nature. Also of human nature. And nature reacts to that. That's only natural. Although it maybe isn't normal, judged by the abuser's set of norms and values.

So, yes, when you intrude on someone, who already is a victim of massive intrusion, when you tell people, who already are victims of massive disrespect, that their brains are defective (i.e. that they're worthless, not worth being listened to with respect, that they have no right to define themselves and their own reality, and that they actually would be better off without a brain at all - without thoughts and feelings of their own), and when you threaten someone, who already is a victim of massive abuse and violence, physical and/or psychological, to either have insight - that the abuse is in their best interest - or they will be punished (i.e. get more treatment), that does actually make you ten times worse than the FBI ever could be.

In the context you mention, the FBI is a symbol. It stands for "abuser". That which expresses itself through "psychosis" is the unconscious. The language of the unconscious is symbol language.

It's that simple. But it also is that complicated. Because you need to face and overcome your own deepest fears, your own woundedness, if you ever will be able to help someone who is going through a crisis. Take a look in the mirror. If you have the courage. If not, as I've said: you'd better not be a "helper". Because you won't be of any help.

Posted by: Marian at February 12, 2009 06:53 AM

Peace be with you Philip

I have really enjoyed this thread. I believe that it is empowering for people like Marion and Stephany to confront people like "medsvstheropy." In his/her blog comments he/she writes, "If she doesn't want to take meds, then let her stay drug-free." I think everyone here knows that in the clinical setting, he/she would be saying quite the opposite. He/she also asks where did he/she praised anti-psychotics. WTF? I read all his/her comments and got no other impression then someone compulsively defending anti-psychotics.

The longer MVT comments the more he sounds like a vacuum sales man with a bad vacuum cleaner.

I also take exception to your request that the word Nazi not be used. I have for years had to struggle to be heard because I spoke against what were called "mother Teresas." Just now people are starting to recognize this problem, and before this I was always the bad guy for telling the truth about those "wonderful people helping the mentally ill, or homeless." I believe we must look honestly at this problem and where it came from. When we realize that this classifying people as unfit and in need of medication came right out of the eugenics handbook, then we can start to correct the problem. But, as long as we look at this as some kind of arbitrary mental health diagnosis with bad science we fail to see that the root problem is that as a society we don't love one another, especially ourselves.

Mental health patients aren't people in this system - they're clients. And most often they are clients only because they bothered someone (quite often it's someone they don't even have to deal with). Someone bothersome is an undesirable. National Socialist Germany made undesirables get mental health screening; none got cured and many ended up dead. The USA makes undesirables get mental health screening and guess what? I say if its got a six foot gray trunk, and weighs 13 tons, it might be ok to call it an elephant.

love eternal
tad

Posted by: tad at February 12, 2009 08:51 AM

Marian:

The causation is bidirectional:

** mental states neurobiological states.

Ultimately, they are just two sides of the same coin.

Posted by: dguller at February 12, 2009 08:53 AM

I agree Tad, there is no choice to be med-free in a hospital setting or in mental health housing. Most people have to sign contracts for housing that says they will remain on their meds; and in group homes it's subtle coercion: "goal sheets".

My daughter attempted to go med-free the summer of 2005 at age 17 after being on meds since age 11 for a misdiagnoses; the last med she removed was Zyprexa and I believe she had withdrawal psychosis. She herself monitored with a new psych (she fired the one that gave her the bp kid dx)the withdrawals.

She was in high school and had plans to have a graphic design internship at Microsoft.

She asked to go to a hospital, she was ripping her hair out from agony in withdrawals, I didn't want to take her, I asked if they would monitor her withdrawals--NO.

That inpatient psychiatrist trialed 11 meds in 13 weeks on her, and essencially, in my opinion, fried her brain.

Now, no one knows, no one knows the what's or the if's or why's--she is who she is today and deserves respect, non-condenscending people to talk to her and care for her, and people who talk to her as if she is "anyone else", though traumatized, and non-verbal, she is still "here", and most of all she is like you and me.

No one can possibility learn about and understand her or anyone else from a text book or medical journal, or college classes.(for example)

I don't see illness, I see her and let me tell you she KNOWS when people are talking down to her and she KNOWS when people have insincere kindness. She's no fool, neither am I.

I've been through the ringer with her in this system and dealt with dozens of staff and doctors--very few treated her with dignity, and the way they treated me was by assuming I knew nothing, and talking about her like she was a "case".

She DOES remember everything, and that is almost something of convenience that people think she doesn't--because that way she wouldn't know how crappy the system is, how lacking of human dignity it bears.

She may not have words right now, but her facial expressions are priceless, and what she thought of the "goal sheet" to stay on meds at the residential care?

She took it, ripped it up, and flushed it down the toilet.

The staff was "concerned", (they complained to me. I laughed. I gave her a high 5 and told her not to flush paper in toilets.

Soteria, by the way, would be successful as a model if it had the monetary funding back-up from pharma that NAMI does.

Local NAMI housing is funded by pharma, and patient med-compliant paperwork is mandatory for residing in one.(at least one place I researched for my daughter).

This is probably far too long, and may not get a point across, but one thing I can say, is I've been inside 1/2 dozen psych wards with her, for 6-12 hrs a day for 3 solid years...and what I saw there was shocking, and traumatizing for me too.

She is free to do what she wants--meds or not--but when a brain has become addicted (yes addicted chemically) to anti psychotics, I feel there is no turning back for that matter.

Reference goes to Beyond Meds and Marian's site, Mark P.S.Survivor site....and Rayne's World.

There are too many sufferers who have survived to silence any more.

Posted by: Stephany at February 12, 2009 10:27 AM

Stephany,

I have to laugh your daughter's reaction to the goals sheet. I probably would have done the same thing. I wasn't too big on goals group. Sounds like her insight is right in line with my own. ; )

Posted by: Lisa at February 12, 2009 04:58 PM

Goals? Everyone's first goal is to get out is it not? I've noticed the knowing smiles from veterans when newbies to the ward proclaim this as their top goal.

The staff, of course, knows full well you aren't going home...

Posted by: Paul at February 12, 2009 08:09 PM

Lisa, yeah it was hard not to laugh, she's a smart person.

Posted by: Stephany at February 12, 2009 08:22 PM

Yeah, inpatient ppl in psych wards don't have goal sheets, they have med charts.

My reference to goals is out patient residential housing that uses goals as subtle coercion for med compliance, being that taking meds is on all of the client's list; besides showering, and eating and the occasional go to college, get married, have kids, buy a house, and fit into normal society.Oh wait, skip the last 4 and replace it with lining up for meds, lining up for smokes, watching TV. Life as an out patient in some residential care situations is one step from being in a locked down hospital; but they have "freedom" to come and go as they please--just sign out first.

Posted by: Stephany at February 13, 2009 01:30 AM

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