I think Sandford's mother thinks it helped at first, but wondered why it continued after it seemed to help, and she doesn't like that it is erasing such important and helpful parts of his memory now. But I sorta agree with your statement, "What is it about some people with mental illnesses, especially psychotic disorders, and their families?"

Ray apparently lives in a home for Alzheimer's patients. I don't know how such homes operate, but it seems likely that he has less personal freedom & responsibility than if he were living in his own home. So he's not a psych inpatient, but he's not exactly an outpatient either. It's not as if he's living a perfectly independent life and being grabbed off the street for ECT.

http://www.gilbertguide.com/senior-care-directory/minnesota/columbia-heights/assisted-living-facilities/victory-house.html

As I've said, I have no opinion on the rights & wrongs of this case, but this is something to bear in mind.

Now I'm gaining a more accurate picture of the situation. His mother agrees with the treatment? that is ALL Ray's so-called attorney or representative needs, and if we knew fine print details, chances are very high the mother signed something for those treatments.

Because if there is not a court order, this makes this forced treatment even more barbaric than it already is: not that he should have a court order: but, without a legal document in place it sure is a VIOLATION OF HIS RIGHTS.

This has got to stop, and I am glad to see people keep up the posting calling for action to help Ray Sandford. It's all we can do, from a perspective most of us have within the system, is to speak out for others who have no advocate or voice being heard.

As far as the group home: group homes often have mixed diagnoses clients, a person would have to see this place to get a better scenerio of the situation.

Sometimes, these places also have 'contracts' or 'goal sheets' that clients must fill out yearly, and taking meds or receiving treatment is often part of the 'goals' in order to reside in the home. Ray may have signed something like that.

Involuntary out patient ECT being given to a man who has spoken out against the treatment is so barbaric it makes me sick. He can communicate! No one should override his voice! not his mother, not his doctor, no one.

A whole YEAR of weekly ECT treatments??? WTF?!
Is that even documented as a safe (as in it wont kill so many brain cells that it actually kills the patient) to do? I would certainly assume that a few to even a few dozen ECT treatments is a common thing but I did not know that ECT could (and should it? given the brain damage\loss of memory which makes one who one is) be used as a "maintenance" treatment over such long periods and with no scheduled breaks for recovery from the damage being done to this poor guys brain.

I would think that if 4 ECT treatments worked to help this guy get back to a point where he could communicate his desires for his own life, like now that he's doing better from those first four ECTs, well enough to know he doesn't want anymore of them at this time, that THAT would be enough for any humane, decent, non-sadistic power tripping doctor to STOP the ECT treatments until this poor fellow became ill again and could no longer make that decision (or any decision) for himself again... OR until he decided he was getting ill enough again to risk the memory loss of ECT again. THEN they could use ECT again to get him back to the point where he can decide if he wants to continue that treatment, or is well enough he doesn't need anymore treatments for awhile, and to a point where he can decide if the loss of memory of his loved ones, his happy experiences in life etc., and their replacement with the experiences and memory of those experiences - of having his brain shocked! (how horrible) and being cognisant of loosing his precious memories (even worse). HE SHOULD HAVE A CHOICE NOT TO GO THRU THAT! I heard his interview, he can communicate his desires and concerns, and no wonder he gets tired easily, he's been having his brain electrocuted every week for however long now, I'm sure that the recovery and healing from that takes a lot out of a person.
If anything this poor guy and what they are putting him thru, I wouldn't be suprised if the pure exaughston from the physical trauma he's being put thru is working as a "sedative" to keep him behaving well and so all the docs and care takers are of course going to see that as a good thing and say he's getting better (but really WHO is it such a good thing for? Them really, especialy considering HE says he doesn't want to go thru this anymore. HE doesn't want it. DAMN, how can you argue it's a good thing for him if it's making him, a man obviously of limited means, go to so much trouble to try and get the treatments to be stopped.???) this is just so fuct up.

This just seems sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo excessive. ECT once a week for an entire year? Obviously the people who are forcing this on him care more about how hard he makes them work to take care of him and interact with him than they do about wether or not he gets to keep his memories and live not in constant terror over having to go thru another ECT treatment every week.

I really hope this guy wins in court because this is just outright abusive treatment. They are essentialy forcing the guy to end up as if he has Alzhiemers rather than allow him to have problems with psychosis. He should be able to choose which problem he'd rather deal with, an ECT induced state of alzhiemers or the psychosis he's lived with all his life.

I'm not saying that ECT doesn't work for him (I really wouldn't know), but from what his mom says it seems it did start helping him after the fourth treatment, but now even she thinks the memory loss side effects it is causing him are making the treatments excessive - Why couldn't they just leave it at four or five treatments every now and then when the effects of the last four or five treatments had worn off? At least then his brain might just be able to heal enough to be able to hold onto his precious memories.

If even the guys own mother is starting to feel that the costs of the treatment are outweighting the benefit then for gods sake, even if he isn't "competent" to make his own decisions, OBVIOUSLY one of the people who knows him the best and more than probably cares for him MUCH MUCH more than any of these power tripping doctors and care takers who are forcing this on him, well let the guy have a choice not to partake in THIS "treatment". Why isn't anyone listening to this guys mom? She wants him to be able to remember his neices and nephews... it's barbaric for anyone to want to take away memories of a persons loved ones no matter what the benefit suppossedly is.

I hope the courts stop this. Immagine how hard it is already for this guy, then immagine him one year from now, with the same problem with psychosis (because ECT is NOT going to "cure" him, he will still always have to be fighting and getting treatment for this illness) BUT now a year on after all that ECT the poor guy can't even remember who his mother is, his sister, his family, friends ... WHAT SORT OF LIFE IS THAT? HOW CAN ANYONE JUSTFIY DOING THAT TO A PERSON? He'll still be ill and the only thing that will have changed will be that he will no longer be able to remember his family, his happy memories and he will end up far more ill because of it... because he will feel all alone in the world, not having those memories and those bonds with family members and friends, not knowing who he is beyond the day to day psychosis he battles. THAT IS THE MOST FUCT UP INHUMANE SICK, TWISTED,CRUEL THING I could ever immagine a doctor could to "for"/ TO a person with a psychotic and affective dissorder.

What sort of idiot, compassionless, unable to think ahead and see the consequences of thier actions MD in need of an asswhooping and loss of thier license to practice medicine -QUACK- would think that a man with psychosis and affective dissorders would be better off dealing with those things without any memory of family and therefor no longer possesing knowledge of the support system they have in the form of family, and without any memory of thier former self befor the illness hit them.

This short term solution will only in the long term make this man much much more ill, all alone in the world, unknowing of anything of his past, of any of the good that had existed in his world, left only with the knowledge that again this week he will go to the hospital, be drugged, be shocked, and has nothing to look forward to but more loss of even the most recently formed memories and the endless treatments for his ultimately incurable illness. These treatments are for nothing because they will not cure him AND THEY WILL MAKE THINGS WORSE FOR HIM IN THE END.

It is not irrational or a sign of how ill he is that he is refusing and fighting against these treatments. I am sure that in the core of him he knows that as the all the memories of his life and family slipp from his mind he will be left with ONLY the psychosis and NOTHING, no experiences beyond his current episode in the illness to draw on for strength, for meaning, for happyness, for a sense of belonging and being loved, for hope.

THAT will NOT do a damn thing to help this man live a better life. I would bet everything I own that if they force him to undergo these ECTs for a year and they are successful in wiping out his memory and that "side effect" of the treatment is realized that this guy, Ray will be so many times more ill than he ever was befor and on top of it he will be an empty shell of a person with no past, no memories, no hope ... OH! GOD! It is just too sad to think about. I almost want to invite this poor guy to come live with me and feel free to smear his shit and piss anywhere he pleases because I'd almost rather live in a toilet bowl than know that something like this is being done to somebody. Let the poor guy be, so what if you think he doesn't make sense or does stuff that is gross or socialy unacceptable. He's not a threat to anyone, he's not going out and hurting people, all the guy wants is to be able to remember who his family is, the people he knows in life, how and why he loves them, the happy times they have had, WHO HE IS. How could anyone say it is okay to take that away from him?

What is it? Are the alzhiemers patients in the group home he lives in easier to deal with? So these sicko messed up people figure "eh, the alzhiemers patients don't remember thier lives and family and they act pretty decent so what's the big deal if we erase this guys memory?"

I just do not get it. I really really really really hope that it occurs to the judge that stealing the memories, good and bad, from a person who already is suffering mentaly can not, could not in any way help them recover. He'll just end up a lonely, confused shell of a person. As it is, he sounded like he wants to be able to remember the people in his life, to force him to forget them, that is just WRONG.

F-CKING ASS-OLES. The guy is saying NO. No means no. This is mental rape, but it's worse than that. They might as well start doing lobatomies again if they let this ECT continue. It's just that wrong.

Who do I write to to help this guy? Please let me know.

The court hearing in mid-December was held in the basement of a hospital (apparently for the convenience of the doctors attending). From what I've read of it, Ray's lawyer didn't call any witnesses to testify on his behalf. Except for Ray himself, who did get to testify, apparently everyone who spoke testified that the ECT should continue. Not surprisingly, a few days later the judge ruled against Ray, and that the shock treatments should continue. Ray had another shock treatment on Christmas Eve Day, and is scheduled to have another this coming Wednesday (January 7th). So they're giving him the ECT every other week now, instead of every week. That's about the only good news. An internet-radio station is having a call-in show and interview with David Oaks about this on Saturday (January 3rd). I think it starts at Noon Pacific time - there are probably more details on the MindFreedom website.

Some information about tomorrow's radio show:

Sat., 3 January 2009, 2 pm to 4 pm CT
Free Live Web Radio

"What's Ailing America"

This episode of the live Internet radio program "What's Ailing America" will be devoted to Ray Sandford and his ongoing forced
outpatient electroshock. David W. Oaks, director of MindFreedom International, is scheduled to be on during the second half, and anyone can call in. [MFI is not a producer of this show.]

* Host: Dr. Rebecca Carley
* Call In Number: 1-800-313-9443

To listen, when the show begins visit: http://republicbroadcasting.org

David Oaks of MindFreedom hosts a live radio show

http://bipolarsoupkitchen-stephany.blogspot.com/2009/01/mindfreedom-live-radio-talk-show-right.html

Discussing ECT, Ray Sandford and people calling in are John Breeding and others.

http://bipolarsoupkitchen-stephany.blogspot.com/2009/08/ray-sandford-out-patient-forced-ect.html

via

http://bipolar-stanscroniclesandnarritive.blogspot.com/2009/08/ray-sandford-some-good-news-finally.html

Ray Sandford gets a NEW psychiatrist who opposes ECT! and a new lawyer