I am very confused on how doctor’s get away with such egregious acts; not only are they allowed to keep their license, continue to practice medicine or research, but why their studies are not considered null and void after such a fraudulent act?

If these same acts were committed by a lawyer/police officer/judge/crime scene analyst, etc.-not only is it likely that they would be fired, lose their license or certification, they would be crucified by the community but many if not all of their previous court cases would be subjected to review and possibly reversal due to the issue of their veracity.

Why does this same standard not apply to these fraudulent acts upon researchers? Has it been concluded that the failure to report the money was based on some sort of IRS fraud or a bias towards big pharma?

As far as I'm concerned probably the most egregious act Nemeroff ever committed was presenting an ardently pro-Prozac paper at the FDA advisory committee meeting in 1991, ignoring the heaps of evidence tying Prozac to suicidality and violence and dismissing the testimonies of all the victims who showed up to testify at the public hearing (effectively bullying them in the process), and, besides that, failing to disclose that he was being paid tons of money at the time by Eli Lilly. The damage that was done by this one act alone is incalculable and demonstrates how naive the FDA is about controlling their own evaluation processes. The media can find all sorts of spellbound patients to testify on his behalf but that's just what they are -- spellbound and under the influence of drugs they don't even realize they couldn't stop taking (without great pain) even if they wanted to.

THIS ENTIRE INDUSTRY INCLUDING ALL PROFESSIONALS NEEDS TO BE REGULATED. This is a fucking crisis!

People need to pay attention to this, because in the end the bottom line was and is profit not the safety and health of consumers.

Take your meds and wonder for one second if the FDA has received skewed data or cooked data or no data before approval. Just remember Zyprexa, Seroquel and others that are in LAWSUITS FOR DEATH AND HARM OF PEOPLE.

Who do we trust?

WHO????!!!!!!!!!

While those of you choose to call Dr. Nemeroff and others whores for their alleged improprieties and immoral actions what I would prefer to see coming from Grassley’s investigations is evidence substantiating criminal acts, subsequent trials and convictions.

Then and only then would I believe some true good would be obtained from all of this. Enough fear of prosecution must be instituted in the correct places to get those who consider prostituting their medical profession and practices for greedy purposes in lieu of preventing the endangerment to the public.

All of these investigations and writings will otherwise amount to nothing more than a public chastisement of the individual perpetrator, in my opinion. Obviously self-regulation of the profession has also not been the answer as was the case with Wall Street and the Mortgage Lenders.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

So they rapped Nemeroff on the knuckles and told him to leave Emory. So what? He needs to be in prison with the other criminals.

His testimony at the CRUCIAL 1991 FDA meeting was decisive in allowing Prozac [and subsequently all the SSRIs & SNRIs] to continue as a real killer drug.

There is an article of Philip's on today's post of an eleven year old boy who burglarized an apartment while he was on an ADHD drug.

At www.SSRIstories.com there is an article on a 10 year old boy on Prozac who shot and killed his father, a physician. Yet during his juvenile hearing, no mention was made of the Prozac.

There were three Zoloft cases involving children on Court TV practically all at once -bam, bam, bam, - a 12 year old who killed his grandparents, a 14 year old who killed his parents & sister and a 16 year old who killed her father & mother. No one seemed to notice that all of these youngsters were on Zoloft. Come one now! Has our country been dumbed down this much. Surely the reporters on Court TV caught this connection but no one seems to care. Is this what we have become - a dumbed down and uncaring society.

When there is no justice for innocent grandparents, parents, sisters, etc,. all killed by snake-oil merchants similar to Nemeroff, then I would say that our country is in much worse shape than anyone realizes.

Even Martha Stewart served time in prison, I mean think about it. This is absurd, but then we are talking self-appointed greedy so-called thought leaders and "researchers", hell where's the whiskey and cigars cause that's where Nemeroff is right now, living it up somewhere, and who doesn't give a shit about what we or anyone else thinks. Ethics? what ethics? morals? integrity?

This won't really have teeth until his research is publicly debunked. I hope Grassley goes there, though once again we've got a psychiatrist making millions for these startlingly obvious "discoveries" both having a heart attack and being abused as a child are emotionally traumatic. I hear he's working on the idea that there's some connection between sad things and saddness...next thing you know he'll be working for Jack Daniels rediscovering whiskey. He should be locked in a psych hospital and be forcibly "treated" with haldol, zyprexa and risperdal, so so we can study whether these drugs help him with his ability to tell right and wrong when it comes to income reporting.

That is one hell of an excellent suggestion, Sally. I'd like to see the good doctor in four-point restraints, actually.

Once again all you Nemeroff haters are on your little vicious rampages and you don't even know the man! You blather on about morals and integrity and show neither when you are perfectly willing to rip a man to shreds due to allegations by a US Senator, who seems to be on a perpetual witchhunt (can we say "McCarthy", anyone??) against an endless variety of groups whose activities he deems questionable. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Oh, I forgot, you righteous bloggers and senators are laws unto yourselves and certainly don't have to be bound by a little something like the basic premise of our justice system.

And for blogger "Sara", who opines that Dr. Nemeroff's patients are "spellbound" and under the influence of drugs they don't even realize they can't stop taking".......so you arrogantly post your nasty comments based on what.....help me out here, Miss Know It All....your personal knowledge of the mindset of Dr. Nemeroff's patients and their drug prescriptions?? I didn't realize these matters were part of the public record...and guess what, they aren't, so that means you are yapping while your brain was napping. Until you actually know what you are talking about, how 'bout getting a life and finding something else to do besides slander folks you know nothing about. Tom Johnson and I are both Dr. Nemeroff's patients and we are neither "spellbound" nor hooked on drugs that we "don't realize" we can't stop taking, etc....
From the tone of your blog, it would seem that we are far more sane, sensible, and stable than you are, Sara, because we don't find it necessary to spend our time blogging & blathering about the mindsets and drug habits of folks we don't know. Also, the next time you want to slander folks, have the guts to sign your full name.

Clay Terry

Hey Clay:
Why don't you chill and pop some Paxil? Charlie would be proud!!!

Hey Tom:

Why don't you be a good little boy and go to bed;
when you grow up and learn to express yourself in words of more than one syllable (oops! Paxil and Charlie have 2 syllables!! Congratulations!)and have the guts to sign your full name, then come play with the big dogs. And for a blogger on a mental health site, you are SO out of touch with what's current in the pharma world; Paxil is so yesterday, dude. I haven't been near it since 1994!

Hope you get the mental health treatment you need;
sorry Charlie isn't taking new patients, 'cause he'd get a kick out of talking to an arrogant little Paxil-pushing upstart like you!

Clay Terry

Paxil is yesterday?
Wow!
Please Clay, tell us what is current on the pharma world.
Cymbalta?
Are there any new approach other than SSRIs?
I'm so happy!

Nemeroff did not report money and he broke the LAW by doing it Clay. THAT is the BIG ISSUE here, the guy needs to be in JAIL.

Dear Clay,

I’ve found your posting interesting and refreshing in its opposition to the entourage and their continuing dogma. Better to have been more respectful in your replies and dispensed with the name calling as I personally find it counterproductive and demeaning in my eyes.

No, I do not know Dr. Nemeroff personally and yes, he is innocent until proven guilty. I also tend to be in agreement with your statement “can we say "McCarthy", anyone??” as I previously have read of another of Senator Grassley’s investigations which in my opinion was kind of “half-ass” and did not include sufficient testimony from those recognized in their fields as experts. Worse yet, I still have not read of any criminal charges and/or recommendations from the Grassley’s committee on that previous investigation. Based upon the investigation I am familiar with, it amounts to in my opinion as nothing more than the normal headline grabbing news media without any substance, follow up or conclusions.

Maybe Philip will consider noting his calendar to do a follow up to his posting on Nemeroff in year or two to see what truly has come of one more of Grassley’s investigations.

More importantly I as a support person would be more concerned and interested in knowing that you as the patient are doing well.

I wish you and all those who participate here wellness through whatever means one deems beneficial and the calm to reason so as not to rush to judgment.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

“Nemeroff did not report money and he broke the LAW by doing it Clay. THAT is the BIG ISSUE here, the guy needs to be in JAIL.” --- Stephany

Stephany, I’m just curious how you know this to be fact? Maybe you could direct me to the information and/or law(s)?

What also scare the Dickens out of me are statements to the effect:

“He should be locked in a psych hospital and be forcibly "treated" with haldol, zyprexa and risperdal, so so we can study whether these drugs help him with his ability to tell right and wrong when it comes to income reporting.” --- Sally

What is disconcerting to me is the anger expressed from those who seem to advocate most for fairness and no forced treatments and yet without all the facts or trial they are ready to pass judgment and execution upon others.

While I am extremely disturbed by the allegations and implications I am more concerned to learn whether or not he falsified any of the information to those studies he participated in and to which he rendered possible falsified professional opinions.

As difficult and as personal as some of these issues maybe for me I shall withhold my opinions and judgments of the man and his actions until more is learned and if ever criminal indictments are rendered.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Nemeroff was denied 9.3 million in grants yesterday from the federal government. They are taking this seriously because it is against the law to incorrectly report the amount received from a pharma company when you are conducting scientific reasearch.

Also, Nemeroff was receiving money from Eli Lilly when he testified in favor of Prozac during the critical 1991 FDA hearing.

Unfortunately, this is not only a conflict of interest but, by keeping it secret, it was very misleading to the panel members who were trying to conduct a fair hearing on Prozac.

As for Clay Terry, I don't for a minute believe that this is his real name. I can't believe it took his docs 20 years to find Effexor [yes I googled his name - found him on pharmalot]. Heck, it only took Andrea Yates' doctor 20 minutes to find Effexor.

I have a strong suspicioun that "Clay Terry" is a paid flunky of Nemeroff's who needs to spend some of those extra illegal millions he made by using this money to defend his reputation.

"Nemeroff Saved My Life" - ha! Clay Terry, that is a good one.

Interesting comment Herb, how;s the VNS business going?

PS- Herb ask Therapy First for that information, he probably knows more about it than I do. I'd love to see both of you comment on the topic side by side.

Which Herb is this? The one of many sir names and identities trolling the internet for debauchery? You’re the last person to be posting here standing on any moral grounds you creep. Your history precedes you Herb! Go troll somewhere else where they don't know what and who you are; Mr. Electronic Stimulation Salesman!!!! Stephany is absolutely right; you and that sociopath should hang out together. That's a perfect match made in hell in my opinion.

Yours truly,
Stan

Just a small PS to my last comment for Herb: Rememebr this site, everyone should see you for who you really are: http://www.geocities.com/whoishetoday/

Geez, maybe your an infamous MD that comes here too?

Stan

Dear Rosie,

Thanks for your thoughts. I know nothing about Clay Terry. I only responded to some of his thoughts.

Dear Stephany,

I follow and concentrate upon those prospective individuals interested in or utilizing VNS Therapy. Maybe Stan could better respond on the business aspect of this therapy as he exhibits vast knowledge of all things, especially me.

Dear Stan,

First I’d suggest you ask Philip Dawdy to give you some understanding of troll(s) and the nature of message forums and those who deceptively participate therein. I think by now Philip has a pretty good education into this subject and some understanding of me and certainly by far he is a superior writer than I.

Who and what I am and that which I stand for can be found in over 10 years worth of my thoughts contained in my feeble writings throughout the internet essentially under three screen names. The first screen name being, lifetime56, was blocked by Yahoo at the request and efforts of troll(s) with similar thoughts and attitude toward me as you’ve exhibited. Apparently you too have been easily deceived by troll(s) and disgruntled by my thoughts and writings and non-herd mentality. The second screen name I used was a series of lifetime56 with various alphabetic extensions until the troll(s) gave up on preventing my posting to Yahoo forums. Lastly, when I was challenged similarly by someone like the likes of you I decided to start using my nickname Herb which is short for my given name Herbert. Additionally, with a little research my family name is also publicly available to those intently interested in discussing the VNS Therapy with me.

For your edification and hopefully for your understanding, you’re late in terms of wanting to know who I am by using that website entry as you’re wealth of knowledge about me. A couple of years ago Philip cited that entry too to which I respond to him in kind and now to you. As Philip learned previously I requested that fallacious and defaming information be removed but it would require legal action on my part and since I’m not so uptight and have no need to waste my assets I’ll leave it to people like you to make knowledgeable judgments of others. I do not know what troll(s) posted that entry or do I know of any of the names or individuals I am alleged to be other than my name appears on the site. Your remarks and vast knowledge quickly reminded me of the woman recently addressing Senator McCain telling him from her readings that Senator Barack Obama is an Arab to which he responded “that is not true.” To which I’ll respond to you and others “that is not true.”

The best way to have addressed that issue in my view was for me to respond directly to Philip and to post that information to my website as well as I have no needs to hide anything. Those who know me both personally from meetings and those who read my writings through the years are capable of discerning the truth as to who and what I am and that which I stand for.

As I wrote to Philip and I’ll make you the same offer, if you’d like to share a little more information about yourself I’ll be glad to post a similar website offering besmirching your name, character and maybe for good measure I’ll drag your family in to the discussion as some of these trolls have done to me elsewhere. In this way others will get to know the real Stan and be able on this forum and other to call you names too.

So putting aside your name calling and the anger you’re exhibiting toward me the only “debauchery” is the fact that you’ve been taken in like that woman calling Obama an Arab and the fact you’ve really not read much of my writings or researched to get a better understanding as to who I really am. I apologize if I don’t think as you. Then again, I am not you.

I’m terribly sorry to further disillusion you but not only don’t I have the time to be a sociopath, I’m retired and continue my efforts researching, supporting and advocating for my spouse’s wellness despite her several medical challenges as well as proactively advocating for and supporting mental wellness and issues such as parity in mental health care coverage which for the moment has been achieved. Oh! I no longer sell any products but I do share my/our experiences, research and knowledge as to one particular therapy along with my thoughts, as disturbing and/or opposite as they maybe to you, utilizing my name and website for anyone interested.

I wish you and all wellness and I’m sorry if I don’t see issues the same as you but I do respectfully read your views.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

P.S. I am not an M.D. but I was a former business executive and entrepreneur who achieved a reasonable degree of success through keeping an open door as well as mind without any need to degrade, disgrace or defame another individual without using their own words when a personal attack upon my character.

Stephany,

Thanks, somebody had to ask Herb about the VNS business. I love this snippet about Nemeroff from the AJC: "Much, if not most, of the research done for these products — many of them with the potential to save and improve lives — is scientifically grounded and conducted ethically." Translation, less than half of the research is reliable, but the positive spin pshrinks with so much power get is amazing. "Potential to save lives," i.e. the drugs and devices haven't been shown to work yet though they've been falsely marketed to psychiatry's powerless victims as life savers. Treatment of a sick man is not in order but punishment of a guilty one is and that's what psychiatric "care" is all about.

Those of you with inpatient psych ward time imagine the beating and "treatment" an inpatient psych patient would get if she got caught stealing an extra pack of crackers. Unequal power dynamic indeed, much if not most sh*t.

Dear Stan,

Please let me add another post script for your edification and hopefully thorough knowledge of me. Maybe this little research which you’ve obviously missed might give you a better understanding of me and my thoughts and even improve you as an individual.

http://vnsdepression.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=621

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

I offer this comment with the expectation it will be my last, as I have to say that Philip's inconsistency with his alleged concern for moderation is a failure. So, I hope he bans me after what follows, but I also hope he has the intestinal fortitude to at least allow it to be printed:

People like Stan, Francesca, Ana, the S crowd in general, only ruin in for Philip with their nasty, vindictive, rude commentary. I believe that Philip's struggles to find work outside this site is at least partially due to you jerks.

You are the dumbass trolls here folks, and I can only hope your hate and distrust takes you where it should go. Stan, your comments are the mark of sociopathy, so project away, as my screen is now blank; find your next potential victim and enjoy your rants and ravings. Only your fellow
antipsychiatrists smile with glee, as hate has a limited following. This choir is sure off key in the notes you sing. Are any of you the ones shouting "Kill him" or "terrorist" at McCain/Palin rallies? Wouldn't surprise me if you are. 'Cause that is the message here. Anyone have the guts to admit you are planning to off your last pdoc? Unchallenged hate like what goes on here sure will lead that way. Doubt me, Philip? Guilty by association sure sucks when it plays out!

To bring it back to the posting that has provoked all this hate, Nemeroff is an idiot and an addict, and hopefully he will get what he deserves for his lies, deceit, and manipulations.

What honest and interested readers do not need is all this extremism and distrust. What a disservice to the author here, but in the end, I am beginning to wonder if he somewhat encourages it by letting crap like the above slide.

What goes around, comes around. Sorry, but it has to be said.

to those fair and reasonable, be well. So, am I banned?

TF,
Apparently not, because here's your posting for me to read. I don't understand what you think is so over the top in it that you think would prompt a banning, really.

The other thing I really do not understand--ever--is why you're not able to tune out the more extreme rants. This is a serious question, TF. When something is really over the top I find it hard to take it very seriously and just pass it by. But you get allover upset, often respond and it only fuels things. It's not serving you well at all.

I may have devoloped thicker skin on the first forum I was on many years ago. It was a film forum. Sometimes we actually talked about films. We had several "reunions" (I put it in quotes because it's hard to know what to call a gathering of people who've never met but really know one another should be called), in Boston, Toronto and Seattle. Some people got driven away by the trolls, but I was able to hang in there and the members of that board became very dear to me and really key in my crawling out of my hole.

We had some out-and-out trolls, people who make what goes on here seem like nothing. Scary people, really. I don't see anyone here being actually scary. Rude, yep, but that's pretty easy to ignore compared to what the trolls were up to on this film board.

I'm just trying to put this into some perspective, TF. It would be good if you could develop a thicker skin, the ability to simply skip over the insults. Why do you care what some total stranger you've never met thinks of you? Why is that important to you? It's so not serving you well.

I really want to make it clear that I'm not attacking you here, just pointing up another approach that I hope you'll consider.
Sherry (at work, but ready to leave--I got to take my 5-month old puppy to work today, hot diggity!)

Geez, Two suspect individuals posting thirty minutes apart, Herb of many and countless faces and the sociopath, maybe also known as Herb? I think it's time we count all the times you have said this is your last post! It has to be at least a dozen times now and counting? But then that's what sociopaths do, they keep on going because they crave the attention, negitive or not, it's still attention. So from this point on I'll just refer to you both as Herb.

By the way Herb, another link others can look into about you!

http://clinpsyc.blogspot.com/2006/12/vns-therapy-debate-continues.html

The more we look, the more we see you or was that Sally 12 year old girl, or Brenda 9 year old or TF the renowned Psych Doc? And so many other questionable posters that everyone has their head spinning waiting to see who you'll be next? In my book, your invalid in all forms! I don't give a flying ---- what you think or feel to be quite honest. Don't you get that yet? That goes for your other sir name and twin TF also.

Stan

When Herb commented on reading about another of Senator Grassley's investigations, well folks, Herb failed to mention that investigation was against the manufacturer of the VNS Therapy System. We all know Herb's wife was a study participant, they lied to get her in the study, he then obtained stock in the company (now says he has no financial interest but I proved him a big liar on that on his own site), and he is an active participant with that manufacturer. He uses more than the screen names he's listed here, and he follows himself around the internet answering himself. You would think the guy would have better things to do with his time other than chase himself and others all over the internet. Also, the writings of Clay sounds like Herbs writing style. Herb and Clay both use the word "opine". And if you noticed, Herb was complimenting Clay. That is odd behavior for Herb Stein.

Wow-
This commentary is sounding like some trashy VH-1 trashy reality spat. Can’t we have disagreements in this informative forum without the personal attacks and use of elementary words such as trolls, etc? I am begging you guys to see that you are representative of how others perceive not only this blog but others with mental illness. If I was a first time visitor to this blog and read these comments, I would not come back.

I agree wholeheartedly with Angie. It really is time to stop the name calling and personal attacks. I think there is almost no doubt that the tone of the comments is hurting Philip's chances at making this into a blog that really might be taken seriously by the mainstream as it should be and on which he could build a reputation and go on to great things in article or book publishing. Remember that -- when you are trashing someone else's comment with labeling and sweeping assertions that don't further the education of other readers. We need to respect Philip in this process.

I must disagree in the strongest terms with Both Angie and Sara!

Here we have someone that comes around under different names and people misrepresenting themselves as Herb the TF have done. And when this is brought out in the open and the hypocrisy of it all, you both come here supporting the creep and saying “can't we all get along!” You can kiss his butt or do whatever you want!

I’m not here to get along with sick creeps, sociopaths, and frauds. I personally will continue to expose him for what he is, a sociopath and liar thank you. I guess we all have an opinion, should we take a straw poll now also?

{where is the real name, credentials, medical license, place of practice, and so on for someone that comes here calling themselves a Doctor and countless other things dolling out advice that isn’t worth anything what so ever; I would call that dangerous, irresponsible, possibly illegal, and without doubt unethical}.

All the so called S-crowd, Francesca, Ana, LawDawg, myself, and others surely have their own opinion. Where were you when they were all being attacked, and lied too on this blog?

Geez, If I was a first time reader and saw that kind of stuff I would hope someone would stand up and say something for God's sake; "Free speech in its very essence is offensive" or should I use, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen", whichever one you choice to use Angie and Sara.

Why don't you write Philip to complain, and get us all banned? Then you both can have a peaceful little blog where no one disagrees, birds will circle around our heads and sing each morning. Now maybe we can all get together for a nice group hug too?

Yours Truly
Stan

Stan -- Just to say I am intrigued with your accusation that Herb and Clay Terry are one and the same since I know that Nemeroff is intimately involved in pushing VNS and some kind of player in Cyberonics, the manufacturer of VNS, so maybe Herb would have reasons to defend him either using his own identity or another one. Still it's getting pretty complicated if we have one person here posing as several different commenters. My head is swirling. I'm still against name calling and personal attacks. That's not the same as expressing disagreement. If there are sick creeps and frauds here then in general I try to leave them alone and think it's rather a tragedy for the blog frankly. But cyberspace is a bit like that we're all learning especially where discussions of mental health are concerned.

Stan-
Over a very long period of time, Sara has written some very critical but intelligent posts on this board as have I. Neither of us, in my opinion, have felt the need to resort to personal attacks which I feel is making this blog have the feel of; let me make another reference, certain my space blogs. I guess we can chalk this up to difference of opinion and possibly difference of temperment.

Angie

A little government regulation, including criminal penalties could fix this, that and disclosure rules with fined connected to the gross take on a drug, or if it is not released, the research costs.

Its like drugs in sports, if they were serious they would ban you for life for a positive reading. Ban them from gov money, and they are done.

The work these people do have saved my life, but like cops catching bad guys it does not justify them breaking the law, you save people you do not get a pass on cheating on results. You deal with murderers does not give you the right to violate civil rights or kill civilians.

Oh yeah a NYC cop killed a bipolar man for not taking his meds, he tasered him off a ledge!!!