the label warnings in the US are for teenagers and young adults...people over 25 are not warned in the literature as far as I know...

ugh...

I hate this shit.

the whole "uncovering bipolar disorder" phenomena is the same denial that these drugs create mania and have nothing to do with bipolar disorder...

doctors won't admit that either. God forbid anything they hand out could possibly be the cause of illness.

the denial is staggering, dangerous and criminal.

Dear Philip,

You’ll have to forgive me for possibly inciting the devotees but when I read this and similar postings you’ve made in the past and then when I read the comments from the devotees denying, challenging and attempting to debunk the theories of a bio-neurochemical basis for the malfunctioning of the brain and yet accepting that these various medications are responsible for these actions I wonder how they can have it both ways?

I am also wondering what tests were performed to quantitatively and scientifically arrive at the coroner’s conclusion or is this too another theory? I am inclined to believe what would be valid observations on the part of the spouse but the fact is, at this time, we’ll never know for sure.

I know of individuals who have committed suicide without being on medication(s).

While these are news items I question whether they are newsworthy or nothing more than the usual media sensationalism without substance.

Again, I apologize for being the devil’s advocate but unlike you this article for me does not “speaks for itself:” but in my mind adds to and raises more and more of the same old questions.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

The FDA took the "anxiety" adverse reaction of antidepressants seriously enough that they included it in their General Warning on Antidepressants Published on March 22, 2004. Go to www.SSRIstories.com and click on the links page. This FDA warning is at the top of the links page.

As for the side effect of "confusion", this is listed, at least for Prozac, as Frequent which means that between 1 to 100 people can have this reaction. It could be as many as one out of every four people having this or it could be one out of 20. Nobody knows because Pharma is not revealing this information derived from their clinical trials.

Physicians need to go over the list of adverse reactions to SSRIs when they are being prescribed.
If this man had known that confusion and anxiety were not that uncommon with SSRIs, his life could have been saved. Really sad.

I believe this tragic case of a Celexa [SSRI] suicide is so important that I went into the FDA's General Warning of March 22, 2004 and have copied the salient points.

Here is exactly what the FDA said:
"Anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility, impulsivity, akathisia (severe restlessness), hypomania, and mania have been reported in adult and pediatric patients being treated with antidepressants for major depressive disorder as well as for other indications, both psychiatric and nonpsychiatric. Although FDA has not concluded that these symptoms are a precursor to either worsening of depression or the emergence of suicidal impulses, there is concern that patients who experience one or more of these symptoms may be at increased risk for worsening depression or suicidality. Therefore, therapy should be evaluated, and medications may need to be discontinued, when symptoms are severe, abrupt in onset, or were not part of the patient’s presenting symptoms.

If a decision is made to discontinue treatment, certain of these medications should be tapered rather than stopped abruptly (see labeling for individual drug products for details).

Because antidepressants are believed to have the potential for inducing manic episodes in patients with bipolar disorder, there is a concern about using antidepressants alone in this population. Therefore, patients should be adequately screened to determine if they are at risk for bipolar disorder before initiating antidepressant treatment so that they can be appropriately monitored during treatment. Such screening should include a detailed psychiatric history, including a family history of suicide, bipolar disorder, and depression.

Health care providers should instruct patients, their families and their caregivers to be alert for the emergence of agitation, irritability, and the other symptoms described above, as well as the emergence of suicidality and worsening depression, and to report such symptoms immediately to their health care provider."

So this is what the FDA says and I hope it helps someone "passing through" Furious Seasons who is having major problems with their antidepressant and is unaware that it is the medication causing the problem.

i have to agree with herb. i'm not sure what exactly points to the cause of his suicide being citalopram. i'm welcome to any evidence i missed, but this appears to be conjecture. it's very likely that there are serious, adverse reactions to these medications but it helps nothing to jump to conclusions.

i don't know how many times it needs to be stated that correlation doesn't imply causation.

suicide is rarely something expected and always a shock. people who go on antidepressants in the first place are likely troubled. it doesn't make sense to attribute all actions these individuals make solely to medications when it's obvious that they have been having other difficulties in their life (as trivial as they may appear).

Herb,


You said,


"You’ll have to forgive me for possibly inciting the devotees
but when I read this and similar postings you’ve made in the past and then when I read the comments from the devotees denying, challenging and attempting to debunk the theories of a bio-neurochemical basis for the malfunctioning of the brain and yet accepting that these various medications are responsible for these actions I wonder how they can have it both ways?""


My response - Wouldn't it be better to start your post stating that what you're about to say may be controversial but this is your opinion. Stating the word, "inciting" comes across as inflamatory even if that wasn't your intention.


Regarding the point of having it both ways, even psychiatrists who feel that the rate of SSRIS causing suicidal ideation is low and who believe in the chemical imbalance theory don't question that SSRIS have this side effect. So if they don't see this as double speak, I am not sure why you feel differently.

Robert Hedaya, a psychiatrist who is not antimeds, says in his book, "Antidepressant Survival Program" that "meds are powerful agents that cause widespread changes in the body's neurochemical and hormonal systems. When one of the body's metabolic systems is altered, this tends to created disequilibrium in others - which is in part, why so many people suffer multiple side effect."


I will admit he didn't mention suicide but I still feel this proves my point about your double speak point.


By the way, do you believe that SSRIs can ever cause someone to commit suicide?


You go on to say:


"I am also wondering what tests were performed to quantitatively and scientifically arrive at the coroner’s conclusion or is this too another theory? I am inclined to believe what would be valid observations on the part of the spouse but the fact is, at this time, we’ll never know for sure."


My response - Herb, if all other relevant factors have been accounted for and since suicidal ideation is a side effect of SSRIS (The frequency is in disagreement but no one disputes that it is), the probably is pretty high that it was the Celexa.


You continue to say:


"I know of individuals who have committed suicide without being on medication(s).


While these are news items I question whether they are newsworthy or nothing more than the usual media sensationalism without substance."


My response - Yes, it is sadly true that people committed suicide while not on medication but that doesn't mean Philip shouldn't publish stories like this. It might save lives since many people are on meds and think if they become suicidal, they are defective beings. If they realize that it might be be the med, they can take appropriate actions with their physician. Of course, that is assuming the doctor is knowledgeable which we all know may not necessarily be the case.


Herb, as one who become suicidal on Prozac and developed severe athiskesia on Celexa, I have to vehemently object to you saying this is without substance. It might save someone's life as I previously mentioned.


Again, how can you say this is without substance if suicidal ideation is an accepted side effect of taking SSRIS?


Finally, you say:


"Again, I apologize for being the devil’s advocate but unlike you this article for me does not “speaks for itself:” but in my mind adds to and raises more and more of the same old questions."


My response - What is so bad about raising those same old questions? How many times in medical history have there been questions raised only to be shot down by physicians until they finally listened. A perfect example is SSRIS causing weight gain.


Since people's lives are at stake, I think these questions needs to be raised until all physicians take this threat seriously.

herb and anne: both of you must be stupid. the coroner is a pathologist, a medical professional and has determined that the ssri was the cause. why isn't the evaluation of a doctor enough for you? you trust docs right?

I think it is important in determining what role Celexa played in this man's suicide to review again what the FDA said in its General Warning on Antidepressants on March 22, 2004.

The FDA said: "Therefore, therapy should be evaluated, and medications may need to be discontinued, when symptoms are severe, abrupt in onset, or were NOT part of the patient’s presenting symptoms."

This man was given Celexa for mild depression. Suddenly, he was having terrible symptoms that were not part of his "presenting" symptoms.

This was what started the whole ruckus about Prozac & suicide back in 1990 when Dr. Martin Teicher had 6 of his patients become suddenly aggressively & impulsively suicidal. They were not presenting with suicidal symptoms when they started the drug. That was Dr. Teicher's clue. In fact, at one time, three patients who became suicidal on Prozac & whose suicidality went away once they discontinued the Prozac - they agreed to be "rechallenged" by taking Prozac again. All 3 became violently suicidal again.

So I believe this medical examiner of the man who committed suicide on Celexa heard all the evidence - the presenting symptoms, the rapid change in symptomology and the final act.

I have often wondered why people, especially doctors, have not wanted to believe this fact about antidepressants. Is it similar to saying that the penicillin gave a person pneumonia or what? What is so difficult about accepting this fact?

On www.SSRIstories there is a case of a 15 year old girl who was given Zoloft [Paxil? - can't remember] for warts and she committed suicide 10 days later. Her parents, her relatives, her friends noticied a sudden dramatic change in her personality over that 10 day period but, of course, nobody connected it to the Zoloft. Her parents did not even realize that Zoloft was a drug for depression. They thought it was a drug for warts.

Something to think about-----------------

Herb wrote "I wonder how they can have it both ways?"
It is psychiatry who has it both ways. If the patient improves on a medicine or treatment , psychiatry helps people, if on the other hand the patient gets worse from a medicine or treatment it is the "mental illness" that is responsible.

The medications are intended to change peoples minds. The outcome can be both bad and good for the "patient".

There are countless stories of reactions occuring in people who were not even mildly depressed when put on an SSRI. People given it for stomach upset, headaches, anything the doctor can't find a cause for. Unfortunately, most aren't seen as "newsworthy".

Regardging: "Denying the theory of a bio-neurochemical basis for the malfunctioning of the brain"
I don't believe I've ever read anyone dispute that putting chemical's IN the brain will cause chemical changes.

A bio-neurochemical basis for the malfunctioning of the brain as a disease someone is born with because they have a genetic defect is not the same as a bio-neurochemical reaction to a medication prescribed to a person.

At the time the applications for approval of Prozac and subsequently other SSRIs were first being considered, the government regulators in several countries, especially Germany, expressed grave concern about the evidence for severe agitation and bizarre mood dysregulation that occurred on the drugs and led to suicidality. Germany tried to insist that a concomitant sedative should be required at the commencement of therapy but since sedatives had their own set of problems, Eli Lilly was eventually successful in getting this deleted. Eventually Lilly was even successful in getting a lot of this evidence for agitation swept under the rug but it was clearly there in the early days of seeking approval for the drugs. There simply is no doubt that SSRIs can lead to extraordinary behavioral changes that contribute to a greatly increased risk of harm towards self and others. And whatever you may think of the validity of using www.ssristories.com as scientific evidence of a problem there is simply no doubt if you take the time to read even two dozen stories (and there are now nearly 3000) you have got to see a disturbing pattern and sense that something is drastically amiss in clinical practice and in our ability to track and investigate ADRs (adverse drug reactions).

In the clinical trials of antidepressant drugs, the people in the study were allowed to use "rescue medication" if they got adverse effects. Thus, anxiety, akathisia and agitation from SSRIs were allowed to be treated with other drugs, can't remember which now, perhaps benzodiazapines.

Also, if we are talking about "cause" and saying that controlled clinical trials show real causation and not just association, there was the review of all 25 studies of SSRIs in children done by Columbia University at the time of the FDA review in September 2004. There were 25 SSRI trials in children (15 trials for symptoms of depression, 10 some for other disorders, like different anxiety disorders). The DOUBLING of suicidality in children was seen in ALL trials in children taking the drugs for any indication, not just the depressed ones, so the adverse events are NOT a function of symptoms of depression, they are from the drugs. The drugs caused the adverse effects in the group taking them, showing a significant difference from the group not taking them (4% emergent suicidality with drug group v 2% in placebo group).

This isn't the first UK coroner to warn about SSRI induced suicide..
There were stories in the press a few years ago about coroners warning about the dangers of Seroxat and they were calling for an inquiry..

Of course these please always fall on the deaf ears on the pharma friendly powers that be...

It is an absolute disgrace..

Dear Herb,

You said: Again, I apologize for being the devil’s advocate.
Could the below from the link you supplied indicate you are actually an acvocat from the devil; as it were?
(TM) Registered Trade Mark of Cyberonics, Inc.
Regards Supped from a long spoon.
Stuart.

Dear Philip:

What the hell is the argument or discussion about here? I was a lab rat for Celexa @ UCLA for Forest pharmaceuticals before this drug was approved for general consumption {another one of those pay and the drug gets approved with good old tainted results pharmaceutical bought and paid for schools; if people aren’t aware of it by now, these studies are in just about every major university with a medical program throughout America and around the world: this stuff ( corruption, tainted studies, so called the best of the best experts in psychiatry taking a huge nose dive into the realm of obscurity and a nice cozy retirement of fortune) that recent news that is coming to light now is barely the tip of the polar melt down ice berg!

The corruption is everywhere and with every drug! This goes for even the non psychiatric so called medicines.

Come on now, you can’t have just said everywhere and every drug? If the study is paid for and conducted by any major university and funded by big pharmaceutical, you can pretty much bet the bank that the study is skewed and tainted!

Remember that next time you pop that favorite pill in your mouth. Now back to my Celexa debacle, I went absolutely bonkers on the stuff and they tried to ignore the negative results, and actually tried to increase the dose instead of being concerned about a patient and wanting to delve into why this was happening to me {that when I stood up and said BULLSHIT, I knew from that point on that it was about the drug, not the people it hurt or destroyed, profit over patient each and every time folks}. Of course that never came out in the final study results or warning label did it?
People just don't get it, none of these studies are credible or reliable because they are for profit and not real science.

Let's put it this way for those so called experts, pundits, trolls, and Liars like Herb aka TF and so many more names and faces out there reading this.

If General Motors created this great car that was touted as the greatest car to come on the market in years: then let's say 1 in 100,000 or even 1 million starting exploding for some unapparent reason. How long do you think that car would stay on the market?

Now on the other hand, if it's a drug; it stays on the market in spite of the bad side effects and suspected suicide results. So before anyone POOH POOH’s this story as not having credible results or data to support it for Celexa or any other SSRI in use today; just remember it could be you or someone you love, as in a family member driving that peace of crap drug down their serotonin highway in the a cement block wall, or into someone else’s house.

Please Remember this also, Seroquel and its pharmaceutical Astra Zeneca manufacturer is in court as we speak sued by many States and individuals for misrepresenting this drug to Doctors and consumers, off label use for dubious reasons, and tainted studies and sales pitches related to this drug and the damage it has caused and will continue to cause; and yet this governmental body; this bought and paid for FDA just approved the extended release version to market!

You would have to wonder who is watching out for whom here. This is more than just some bad science and corruption in few isolated cases, this is on a scale we have yet to experience even on wall street and with the housing, lending, saving and loan, bank debauchery and failures {that will only cost us around a trillion dollars or more when it’s all said and done}; I even would argue the fact that this is paramount to conducting out and out genocide on the mentally Ill populations of this and other countries. These are not just institutional crimes, ethical crimes, moral crimes, financial crimes, but crimes against humanity itself!
So take that all mighty psychiatric profession with academia added in for good measure; and place your pills and studies where the sun don’t shine!

Yours Truly,
Stan

Hi AA,

I am neither a journalist nor writer and when I try to respectfully express my views I am met with these personal attacks and off topic statements. And so my reason for having had to apologize before hand for what no matter is stated incites these individuals.

I do believe in the theory of a bio-neurochemical imbalance and/or malfunctioning in the brain and since medications prescribed for these disorders are chemicals they do have an effect whether positive or negative on the individual. I am discussing the devotees to this forum who deny the feasibility of such a theory and yet blame psychotropic medications and most therapies for all causes including suicidality without any quantitative diagnostic means to assert these claims. This is not to say that I easily dismiss observational correlations but devotees only express one point of view and dismiss the other.

As stated I believe that psychotropic meds and other therapies have the potential to exacerbate mood disorders and cause suicidal ideations just as I also believe that these same medications and treatments have the potential to be efficacious and beneficial.

With that stated I’ll also point out that aspirin has the potential to kill.

What is important and that which I advocate for is the education of the patient and his/her support persons in collaboration with a licensed mental health care practitioner to be reasonably knowledgeable before ingesting any drugs or utilizing any treatments. I’ll also emphasize that the patient should be carefully observed for a reasonable period of time to determine any intolerance or unusual side-effects to any treatment change.

“Herb, if all other relevant factors have been accounted for and since suicidal ideation is a side effect of SSRIS (The frequency is in disagreement but no one disputes that it is), the probably is pretty high that it was the Celexa.” --- AA

I’ll accept your view as conjecture. Unlike me and lacking the intellect of “Jones” who I shall presume read the article too and concluded the coroner is a “pathologist”. I didn’t read from the article the qualifications of the coroner other than he was a “Dr” and not wanting to overwhelm “Jones” with too many facts or knowledge but at one time in this country coroners held the position without any medical certification and in some jurisdiction may continue to do so today. I have no knowledge of England’s qualifications. Maybe Jones and his/her superior intellect and knowledge can share some information with us as to a coroner’s qualification requirements in England.

Did you also happen to note the gentleman had a “foot injury”? Did the article list how severe and even more importantly the medications he may have been taking? Who prescribed his medications? It also stated “he had only been suffering from mild depression”. Please define mild depression for me? I’ve know individuals to suffer depression and quickly nose dive into suicidal ideations. For how long was this individual suffering his mild depression?

As I stated previously, many of these articles raise more questions for me than answers.

AA, I did not nor would I intimate that Philip shouldn’t cite, link or comment upon any article that he chooses. I certainly feel I have a right to comment upon the quality of the reporting and content as I see fit, as do you. The problem as I see it is that folks read headlines as fact without further investigation i.e. the woman who told McCain face to face that she read that Obama is an Arab. Well for her Obama is an Arab because she read it somewhere.

Well I don’t mean to incite “Jones” or anyone but I simply don’t agree with some of what I see as repeated dogma and proselytizing when I know from my own experiences, research and knowledge and collaborations to be contrary to some of these statements.

AA, I am in agreement with you that various questions have to be constantly asked until such time as we have definitive answers as well as quantitative diagnostic means to assess and treat these illnesses.

Until such time it goes back to what I refer to as the “Trial and Error Approach to Wellness.”

Lastly, I am not here disputing your experiences or that of Stan or anyone else with medications or other therapies. What I wish to point out from my own experiences, research, knowledge and collaborations all individuals has not had the same experiences and in fact there is a significant percentage who benefit.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

I have never taken Celexa, but I have taken 37 psychiatric drugs in 23 years, which I KNOW have messed up my body chemistry and my brain.

The suicidal ideation gets worse as I get older ,and I am petrified.

I can still fight the voices, but I swear on my parent's life and my cat's, if I ever suicide, these pharma companies will have that on their hands too.

And this is my biggest fear in life. I am so afraid.

Herb,

Who has benefited form these medications? Your wife? All over the internet you have story after story of your wife's treatments. Medications, ECT, VNS. To date she still uses each and every one of these "treatments". And she still gets severely derpessed and suicidal. Why is it that she has never been able to stop one of these treatments? How is it that you can claim they work?

You say patients should be watched closely when starting these medications. What about the patients who started these medications when the entire blame of the side effects was placed on the patient? What about the people who started these medications years ago and their depression only got worse, and to this day are suffering the side effects of these medications. Having a caring, compassionate and knowledgeable doctor would have absolutely no baring on the treatment as doctors would see the patient as serevely depressed. Not severely depressed because of the medications they are taking.

All your experiences, research, knowledge and collaborations have been skewed. Your entire life centers on making money and keeping your wife sick. Whats worse is you used her story on numerous sites on the internet to stroke you own ego.

You can take your "wellness" and shove it up your ass. The last time I looked "wellness" wasn't even a word. It is something you and others use to keep people around you sick as they will never be well in your eyes.

Herb or whatever snake oil sales name you’re using at this time. You are here for one purpose and one purpose only, and that’s to sell us on your VNS theory/product {and yes we know your vested heavily in the company, so don’t feed us your horse manure}.

Let’s quote you here: “Lastly, I am not here disputing your experiences or that of Stan or anyone else with medications or other therapies. What I wish to point out from my own experiences, research, knowledge and collaborations all individuals has not had the same experiences and in fact there is a significant percentage who benefit.”

“Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com “

Since the studies are tainted, the data suspect, the benefits unsubstantiated, the science, research, and doctors are criminals out for pure profit {and that collaboration you are talking about and referring too; are those your friends and cohorts, Dr. Bling Bling, and his crew of mad scientist and psychiatrist home boys’ right}, we all know by now that the pharmaceutical companies are only seeking profit, as are you with VNS. The real science is extremely dubious at best and worst.

How can you make this type of blanket statement Mr. Snake Oil salesman? You have no idea what the real true results are, or the suffering and deaths these drugs have caused others do you? Plus, go back and read my GM analogy and restate your position.
Oh yes, by the way your little advertisement in your sign off is pretty sickening even for a horse’s ass like you.

Let’s for a moment say we bought in to your bio-chemical imbalance theory.

If you were to talk to any reputable neurologist you would know our knowledge of how the brain functions on any level biologically, in wide generalized thought processing, or even physically are still in its infancy of understanding. We might someday understand how it’s work and be able to target certain areas for treatments as we hit and miss today with brain tumor surgery, implants, and such { even though any neurologist/neurosurgeon will freely admit that any surgery is a risky endeavor with unknown consequences involved}. The true reality is certain and fairly concrete at this time; a working understanding of the human brain is probably a hundred or more years away; if that ever happens.

So with that said, targeting any area of the brain or nervous system with VNS or a drug therapy is pretty much a shotgun approach, and at best a poor and unsubstantial way to treat any form of mental health disorder. Because these approaches attack the good functioning parts of the brain along with the supposed bad parts of the brain as well. We are either sending electrical shock waves through the tissue or drugging the complete organ. Not a very effective and safe way to treat a biochemical or behavioral disorder you would think?

Now that’s only if you buy into your biochemical imbalance/genetics unproven and only speculative theory as the totality of the base root of the problem at hand; since all these studies and the data has been skewed by poor science and money mongering every place we look.

Since you of tarnished reputation have ruled out all environmental, learned or experienced behavioral factors, and pretty much all other possibilities involved for some unknown reason! You’re not a Doctor, or at least not under the Herb identity you aren’t?

Sure you can pay off a few notorious Dr. Bling Bling's, and have these dubious studies show just about anything you want them too. Of course that’s until actual human beings start on these treatments and the horrors begin with side effects and unwanted consequences. But you don’t get a flying ---- about that right, you’re vested in the company to make money!!!

So you will continue to tout your snake oil approach every place you can. And just like the Big Pharmaceutical Companies you’ll use these nice sounding buzz words of new, improved, and miraculous, and try to make these cute sounding rationalized and fictitious arguments as you throw TV and magazine commercials at us saying what a wonderful life you will have if you take this pill or have this therapeutic process {or in your case troll the internet under a thousand different names writing factious postings targeting an audience in need or looking for some relief and hope}. Yet it’s all based on tainted and suspect science.

It’s the snake oil of the 1800’s all over again repackaged and resold. Ask Philip why he has such chronic back pain? I’m pretty sure it’s due to the side effects from one of these so called miracle cures that somehow went a rye because of poor clinical review, testing, oversight, and a doctor’s misuse of a so called medication or treatment.

My only question at this moment is why Philip allows you to come here and peddle your snake oil without some form of warning label and signal attached to each one of your post. The very least you could do is send him a few thousand dollars of your blood money for advertising cost on this site.

Oh yeah, now the personal attack part which everyone just loves, Is your wife real or just a 9 year old blow up doll named Sally you take tender loving care of? At least then if you were using her as a Lab Rat as you have, the only harm you would be doing would be destroying a nice piece of recycled plastic and could be buying another replacement at blowupfriends.com {laughing}. You have to know by now, every time you post here under any name; I will be right behind you telling everybody the truth about you and your dubious ways. So just keep posting, and I will keep replying Herb aka of a thousand different names. Am I nice! NO! Will I be Nice? NO! Will I go after you and your kind with every insult, unmasking, and tool available? You can bet on it Herbie {smiling}

Cold as Ice,
Stan
"anti-herb group"

herb and anne: both of you must be stupid. the coroner is a pathologist, a medical professional and has determined that the ssri was the cause. why isn't the evaluation of a doctor enough for you? you trust docs right?

You might do some research before you begin hurling epithets. The position of coroner (in England as well as in the U.S.) is a public office which does not require any medical training. In England lawyers are qualified to serve as coroners, and in America the position is often filled by the local funeral director.

Hi Stan,

I’m pleased you have it altogether.

“The true reality is certain and fairly concrete at this time; a working understanding of the human brain is probably a hundred or more years away; if that ever happens.” --- Stan

And should your statement be correct you and all the others have a right to do absolutely nothing and deal with your illness or whatever you prefer to call it as you see fit and as far as I am concerned doing nothing is okay with me too if it is okay with you.

I didn’t realize that you were forced to be “a lab rat for Celexa @ UCLA for Forest pharmaceuticals”. That’s terrible knowing how you feel about doctors, medications and therapies. How come you just didn’t grin and bear it being as wise and knowledgeable as you allege?

“Is Something Not Quite Right With Stan - A Mental Health Blog” --- Stan

You don’t have to buy into my or anyone’s theorizes. I gather from your writings you’re doing great on your own and that’s all that counts to my way of thinking.

I’m not selling anything nor do I give advice. I am sharing my experiences, observations, research and knowledge and we know smart people like you have no need to buy into anything because you’re doing well.

For you, I gather my wife is not real so who am I to dispute your thoughts and your factual knowledge of all things.

Unlike you I do not believe that all of psychiatry, its practitioners and studies are all tainted but once again, from you’re writings, who am I to even think about challenging you and your thoughts. So I’ll leave it at that.

Oh by the way, I learned of another forum posting of my recent demise. I guess you missed that factual piece of information too. So what I believe to be appropriate for you, you’ve been conversing with the deceased and as you already know his many screen names too (sarcasm).

Lastly, I also have to also apologize for not wishing you “wellness” as I wouldn’t want to offend and/or incite Carol with a word that doesn’t exist. Who am I to even consider disagreeing amongst all the brilliance demonstrated by you, the trolls who are enamored with me and some of these other participants (sarcasm)?

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Herb and his blow up doll so called wife:

We all live and learn along the way! Except you Herb learned all the wrong stuff; no ethics, no morals, no conscience, just good fashion greed and mongering in absolute oblivian. Unfortunately you have also learned how to con people for a nasty living. I on the other hand, I have learned the the hard way the truth about psychiatry and snake oil salesman like you.
To bad to hear your reported demise wasn't real; Hell will be missing one of it's finest citizens tonight.

And by the way Herb aka Con of many names and genders; I know a hell of a lot more than you do about life and mental health! Meet me sometime and find out! You can bring your blow up doll along for company, if you find me to offensive or scary {laughing}.

Cold As Ice
Stan
anti-herb group

Dear Carol,

“Who has benefited form these medications? Your wife? All over the internet you have story after story of your wife's treatments. Medications, ECT, VNS. To date she still uses each and every one of these "treatments". And she still gets severely derpessed and suicidal. Why is it that she has never been able to stop one of these treatments? How is it that you can claim they work?” --- Carol

Well Carol if you read my writings as you’ve stated “all over the internet you have story after story of your wife's treatments” then you already have the answers to your questions.

Respectfully, I think you’re full of shit and along with the similar writings of Stan who explains “I on the other hand, I have learned the the hard way the truth about psychiatry” wouldn’t know the truth in my opinion if it kissed him on the lips whether about me or it seems much of anything else.

“…if you find me to offensive or scary {laughing)”…no Stan, actually I think you probably are in need of some serious help but thanks for asking my opinion anyway.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

move on here

There are two main reasons for the suicides from ssri's.

1) if you are bipolar it may make you manic, then crash. Most doctors are not able to detect bipolar that is not classic in nature.

2) When you feel better your perspective changes, you see things differently and hopefully more functionally, this however means that when you look back or a memory of your behaviour in the past is triggered you see yourself differently. This can be a real shock, you get the feeling that you are seeing yourself as the healthy people around you see you. And it can be a nasty picture even if you were not all that bad. One tends to be less charitable towards one self.

Generally older people have more perspective and can get past this, younger people are more susceptible to being horrified by this view of themselves. This can trigger suicidal thoughts and actions. I have never heard of anyone being warned that they will see their past differently as they get better.

My Husband took Citalopram for 2 weeks and took his own life, he even told our doctor the day before that he felt suicidal and would gas himself with the car, and what did she do,she gave him another 28 days worth of Citalopram
Do I need to say more.

Celexa killed my 46 year old son. He'd successfully battled depression for over 10 years, using older, established drugs. In early June,2001, his psychiatrist switched him to Celexa. He phoned the doctor to say that his depression had worsened, but the shrink urged him to keep taking the drug. 10 days later he shot himself in the head. The FDA reports of 2004 finally conceded that SSRIs can induce suicidality. Three years too late for our family.