Trazodone made me sleep walking for two nights. The first day the psychiatrist said that it would go away... I had to wake up in the middle of the night in my living room making a speech a don't remember the content to make him see that is was not a good idea to put me on this drug.
Drugging veterans is absurd!
They need therapy and exchange ideas with those who has suffered the same.
Vietnam veterans were more lucky to be diagnosed "war neurotic" or "battle neurotic" or "military neurotic".

I believe that any human being who has been on battle fields has the RIGHT to have huge emotional problems. This is not a mental disorder and no serotonine, dopamine can cause any kind of relief.
No drug can heal or manage this kind of wounds.
There are numerous cases of suicide on ssritories.com of veterans.
I will never understand why on earth Zoloft is the anti-depressant used to PTSD.
I didn't know that antipsychotics were being used.
The last time I heard about these kind of treatment it was "anti-depressant, benzo and mood stabilizer".
Is it so hard to see that these men are not depressed in the sense that psychiatry always understood it?

This is such an important topic. The worst part is funding for obvious treatment (try getting a therapist or an appointment in that system), and if the treatment remains medication based only for such obvious TRAUMA, then there will never be proper help for post-combat PTSD, which, in some cases ruins men and women's lives forever. The U.S. has never addressed this PTSD enough, and it is time that we do; but of course it falls into mental health care, which is a system that is failing millions of Americans already.

i really agree
there needs to be a stronger system of support beyond medication
it was really sad reading a while back about the guy who barricaded himself in his house and killed himself with inhalants

What a well written yet extremely disturbing story; additionally, a huge loss to our nation, the mental health community, the Military, and the family. Unfortunately, this is a story all too common, one that I feel is may become commonplace among our troops as this war hopefully subsides over the next several years. With bleak employment opportunities, financial hardships, familial readjustments and the effects of post-war related illnesses, this may be the tip of the iceberg. Sadly, in this time of economic crisis, this social crisis will be placed on the backburner, social service jobs will likely be cut (as they are usually one of the first to go), and the soldiers needs will not be met. I would love to see this as a topic in the current Presidential Debates but that will never happen.

This topic hits one of my hot buttons. And I know it was unintentional, but the "gals" deserve nothing less also. There are countless women that have been there in the thick of things also with this war.

My neice came back from Iraq pretty messed up. But the VA, in their infinite wisdom, declared she did not have PTSD because she had not had a combat-designated assignment and she couldn't have had that assignment because she is female. Didn't matter that she was stationed at a base that had daily mortars lobbed onto their compound. Didn't matter that she had one blow up less than 10 feet in front of her. Didn't matter that it had already been documented in her medical records that she was having coping difficulties and had been medivac'ed out to Germany before being sent back stateside.

It took almost a year for her to get some kind of help and their first option was NOT talk therapy but rather to numb her up with several different psych meds. Which, by the way f'ed her up even more!

I would like to share one valuable resource (and more helpful than the VA) that is available for veterans returning to the Pacific NW. It's called Returning Veterans Resource Project NW. They have a website at www.ReturningVeterans.com or they can be contacted at (503) 402-1717.

It's my firm belief that the VA will never get this one right. After all, look at how much they've done for our Vietnam vets.

Aaron,
You're not alone in your beliefs. Thank you.

Psychotropic drugs for PTSD are cheaper, doncha know? Though I have read of a FEW good but costly programs (talk therapy, outdoor therapy and the like), basically I understand that the military has very few of these for PTSD. For all the zillions going into top notch artificial limbs, there is a pecking order for service, just as there is in real life with any service for mental health problems. The artificial arm guys win. The PTSD guys lose. I cannot place blame on young men who are enticed, in a disgusting way, and preyed upon, by the services, to get them to go fight. When I was up in the mountains this summer, the predominant ads were "Join the National Guard". The service has their demograhics down - they know where to go to find young men/women who either 1. have few to no alternatives to going in or 2. buy this as a service to their country.

I wish we could have another massive rally, or at least a rally in Lafayette Park, with signs on several issues: Ban psychotropics for PTSD, Ban tasers - they kill people on psychotropics, train the police, EDITED*******, plus some street theater. Those of us who have lost our loved ones to lethal psychotropic meds could wear black, carry coffins. I feel so much pent-up anger at this government. I hope a shred of humanity will emerge if Obama wins, as I don't see such a shred in his opponent.

END

i had to edit out some of this comment as it violated this site's policies.

Philip

Aaron,
I don't think your views are in minority. Thank you for saying all you said.
I believe you're American and I've already heard Americans saying what you said.
For those who are from other countries it would sound anti-American and this is one of the reasons I prefer not to say what you said although I agree with you.

I'm appalled by the clinical-trial's recruitment - once again they are being recruited.
All sort of drugs are being tested:
Propanolol; Geodon; Seroquel; Topamax; SYN117 (nepicastat)(?); Paxil; Ziprasidone; BRL29060A (?); Mirtazapine; Aripiprazole; Hydrocortisone; 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine; Divalproex sodium; levetiracetam; Drug: clonazepam and paroxetine; Drug: paroxetine, desipramine, naltrexone; Prazosin; Omega-3 Fatty Acid(!)

And same techniques:

Repetitive Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (rTMS) (MagPro, Medtronic); Low pressure hyperbaric oxygen therapy; Multi-component Yoga Intervention; Behavioral: Virtual Reality Treatment for PTSD; Cognitive behavioral treatment enhanced by virtual reality....

If this is science I have to learn what is the meaning of this word.

Strangely enough this trial has been completed:
12 Completed Characterization of the Use of Antipsychotics in PTSD During the Past Seven Years
Conditions: PTSD; Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder

What is learned from this study is not worthy?
They will have to do more clinical trials with antipsychotics?

This has been one of my big concerns about this war for quite a long time. I've actually had a letter or two to editors published on the topic. Not only are we medicating the heck out of veterans who have had to endure multiple tours in Iraq, we are even medicating the soldiers who are there fighting. Frankly it just terrifies me to think of soldiers on antidepressants and God knows what else actually fighting on the front line. I can only imagine what kind of PTSD this might give you once you "wake up" from the blunting effects if you remember things at all and how impaired your judgment would be in the thick of some crisis. Ach! How many innocent people are having their lives destroyed forever in all sorts of multiple ways?

I think the New Yorker has something going about PTSD as this isn't their first article on the topic. Here is another one about an alternative (to meds) therapy. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/05/19/080519fa_fact_halpern

Thanks for posting this. It's a good article.

Aaron is right on the issue of PTSD not being a disease but a natural consequence of extreme stress causing trauma. PTSD can be described as a collection of overwhelming negative emotions connected to memory. There is an alternative therapeutic technique that seeks --not to remove such memories-- but to diminish to zero their emotional impact. Thus, the technique is named "Emotional Freedom Technique", allowing people to have freedom from intrusive, damaging emotional responses.

The technique has been described as:

"EFT is a simple and safe approach for dealing with some of the emotional issues commonly encountered in near-death experiencers such as posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD). EFT is a self-healing method that is spreading rapidly across the country. It is an easy-to-learn energy psychology therapy. EFT involves self-tapping on acupuncture meridian points while repeating short statements about a particular emotional experience or belief. Activation of the energy meridians in this fashion deletes the body memory of the issue connected to the cognitive memory allowing anxiety to be replaced by emotional freedom."

EFT has been shown to be remarkably effective in treating PTSD by healing the ~cause~ of the condition, rather than by masking its symptoms, which is all that psych meds ever do. It has helped individuals with severe traumatic damage, including rape victims, Vietnam War veterans, etc. Regardless of its efficacy and the relatively short time required for treatment, however, it is unlikely that EFT will be provided for America's returning soldiers for one reason. Economics. There is more money to be made from the long-term "maintenance" of a patient by providing continuous "treatment" with pharmaceutical drugs than by implementing a methodology that alleviates the problem within a short period of time. EFT cannot be patented, therefore there is no profit in it for the drug companies whose monetary influence causes politicians to get and stay elected.

And this is our America.

For more information about EFT, you can Google it, see EFT videos at YouTube, or download for free a complete manual for learning the technique at http://www.emofree.com

For specific information about EFT and PTSD, you can visit this link: http://www.emofree.com/Articles.aspx?id=30 or

http://tinyurl.com/4a2wj6

hi all. to let you know, i've removed aaron's comment and banned him from the site since he used his comment to call for the murder of doctors. that is against my site's policies. while i'm not a huge fan of some psych docs, calling for their murder is absurd and criminal and i won't tolerate it.

Philip,
I didn't noticed it. I've only read the parts related to PTSD.
I believe that most people overlooked this absurd call.

Jack,
I'm sorry but
""EFT is a simple and safe approach for dealing with some of the emotional issues commonly encountered in near-death experiencers such as posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD). EFT is a self-healing method"

There is not SIMPLE WAY to heal trauma.
You're showing a very narrow understanding of what these people has gone through.
Comparing months on the battle fields to "near-death" experiences (you wrote experiencers but I believe you meant experiences) is nonsense.
This is a SPAM.

"i've removed aaron's comment and banned him from the site since he used his comment to call for the murder of doctors. "

Oops. Missed that. I definitely do not get behind that kind of thing.

I work for a suicide hotline, two actually. One you might be familiar with.....

I have to get 30 hours training next month to deal with PTSD with our soldiers coming home, since their suicide rates are sky high.

Will keep Philip posted on what I learn.

PTSD is a perfect example of the problems with psychiatry. It really is a good idea to provide counseling and empathy to veterans if they want it but let's not forget these guys face the same rotten society we all live in and often come back from the war to no money, no jobs, lost family in addition to the trauma from the war.

Here's a link to the Paula Caplan article that explain the problems with the ptsd as medical diseas model. What she said -

http://paulajcaplan.net/files/Vets_are_not_cr.pdf

Psychotherapy works for PTSD but it takes a well trained therapist and it takes a long time. We have a shortage of well trained therapists who understand trauma and who aren't trying to use shortcuts that impress but don't work in the long term. We need to start training therapist now in long term psychotherapy of PTSD.

ana:

I understand your skepticism regarding the claim that EFT is a simple method that can heal PTSD. Our current model is as Alison Hymes expressed: "Psychotherapy works for PTSD but it takes a well trained therapist and it takes a long time. "

Our belief, based upon previous experience, is that such healing takes a considerable amount of time. What I'm telling you is that there is significant evidence that there is a ~new~ methodology that has been shown to be effective for quite severe PTSD within fairly short time spans, sometimes as few as two or three EFT sessions. I know that sounds unbelievable. That is why I included links so you can look into the issue and see for yourself.

I have seen DVDs of Gary Craig (developer of EFT) treating Vietnam Veterans who had been suffering for 30+ years with PTSD. Typically, they had devastating intrusive memories that caused them to experience severe negative emotions. On the DVD, you can observe Gary Craig administering EFT, with the result that these men were able to recall the toxic memories, but without feeling any emotional discomfort whatsoever.

As for your suggestion that my posting information relevant to this discussion constituted spam, I strongly object. I have nothing to gain from people reading about EFT at a website! I'm not an EFT practitioner, nor do I know any, nor have I ever even had EFT treatment myself. (I live on a remote island and there are no EFT practitioners here.) I only shared this information because the epidemic numbers of Americans returning from overseas with PTSD is a national tragedy. That their suffering is either ignored or is "treated" by the administration of dangerous psychiatric medicines is a disgrace, and we American citizens owe it to our brave military personnel to provide them with truly effective therapy. I shared what I know about EFT in an effort to get helpful information out into the public. I certainly derive no personal benefit or advantage from doing so.

Jack,
I prefer EMDR that claims that can heal in 15 minutes.
Too much quicker than EFT I suppose.
I'm sorry but I consider SPAM anything claiming that is selling anything in sites of discussion.
I still do not consider your approach of any relevance as a treatment for PSTD or any kind of emotional problem.
I'm very sorry but I don't consider any kind of quick fix for any emotional problem and your comparison of PSTD with near-death experience sounds very strange to me.
I see people spending 5 years on therapy just to get in terms with less harm than being on a battle field.
But if you claim you have found the "cause" of PTSD you should be writing on this because we all want to know.

I'm deeply concerned with the lack of access to good long-term psychotherapy as Stephany and Alyson Hymes have stressed.

Hi, Ana,

Just to clear up a few things:

First, the website about EFT that I directed people's attention to doesn't really "sell" anything. If you go there, you can download a complete manual that provides an overview of the method as well as detailed instructions so people can begin using EFT on themselves immediately. The website sells DVDs, but the licensing agreement allows buyers of the DVDs to make as many copies as they want, to give away. Their interest is not in making money, but in making EFT available to as many people as possible. EFT is not merely helpful for PTSD, but also for innumerable other conditions: phobias of all sorts, anxiety, addictions, eating disorders, depression, insomnia, OCD, neuropathy---the list is endless.

I'm not sure why you'd say that this approach is not relevant "as a treatment for PTSD or any kind of emotional problem." One of the web pages I cited:

http://www.emofree.com/articles.aspx?id=30

has a large number of case studies of people who have been helped with many variants of trauma related distress, and classic PTSD. (EFT is effective for other issues as well, but the discussion here on this page at furiousseasons.com relates to PTSD.)

Here is a noteworthy comparison of EFT and "good long-term psychotherapy." There are EFT practitioners who offer to charge, not on a per-session basis, but for a complete course of treatment. In other words, a client may come to an EFT therapist with an emotional problem they want resolved. They may then agree on a maximum dollar amount that the therapy should cost. If treatment takes more than the equivalent number of sessions, further sessions are free. Or alternatively, if the EFT therapy is not able to resolve the problem, the client isn't charged. THAT is how effective ---in the short term--- EFT can be.

Can you imagine a psychotherapist who would agree to such terms? In fact, the therapeutic goal of typical psychotherapy is not to resolve or "cure" a client's problem, but to help get them to a place where they can cope with having the problem, and have a reasonably successful life in spite of continuing to have the problem. The goal of EFT is quite different: it is to resolve the problem so that it no longer affects the client adversely, at all!

Ana, I can understand how you would believe that such a thing is impossible. Then again, before penicillin was invented, the idea of taking a pill that could cure pneumonia was believed to be impossible.

Once again, I suggest that it is worth looking into EFT. If, however, you have some other reason for rejecting EFT as a treatment option, well, that is your opinion, and you have every right to your beliefs. It was not my intention to change anybody's mind, but rather, to make people aware of a potentially invaluable treatment alternative for returning servicemen and servicewomen.

--Jack

Jack,
I've already seen many new techniques that claims the same you claim.
Anyway, take a look at this post that Philip wrote: http://www.furiousseasons.com/archives/2008/10/study_psychoanalysis_is_better_than_other_psychotherapies.html
thank you for the informations.

Thank you, Ana. I wasn't surprised that the psychoanalysis study showed such a high level of efficacy. I completed a course of psychoanalysis that took eleven years, but was, I feel, quite successful in helping to integrate the fragmented self I had at that time.

It's a shame that psychiatry has devolved into a sophisticated pill-pushing racket. No one seems to understand how incredibly dangerous and destructive psych meds are! I was damaged by my doctor prescribing me Xanax over the course of nine years ---when that type of drug should never be prescribed for more than two or three weeks at the most.

(I wrote a book about my experience: THE BENZO BOOK. People can buy it, or read it for free on-line.)

--Jack

Jack,

I agree that EFT (an offshoot of TFT)needs to produce solid, valid proof for its claims. So far all the independent research I have seen done on TFT, EFT and other offshoots says that it is just junk science in line with the QRAY bracelet. Heck you would probably get the same results by wearing a QRAY (placebo effect). Sorry but this is just another example of the flood of "snake oil" salesmen that are flooding people with so called therapies and "proof" or studies to allegedly back them up but in reality the "studies" do not stand up to the light of honest inquiry and scientific method.
-
As for EDMR, controlled research has shown that EMDR's most distinctive feature (visual tracking) is unnecessary and is irrelevant to whatever benefits the patient may receive.
-
I also think it is telling that you claim "In fact, the therapeutic goal of typical psychotherapy is not to resolve or "cure" a client's problem, but to help them get to a place where they can cope with having the problem, and have a reasonably successful life in spite of continuing to have the problem."
-
Just saying it is so does not make it so. In fact the ACA contradicts what you just said with this statement from their homesite:
-
"Professional counselors work with individuals, families, groups and organizations. Counseling is a collaborative effort between the counselor and client. Professional counselors help clients identify goals and potential solutions to problems which cause emotional turmoil; seek to improve communication and coping skills; strengthen self-esteem; and promote behavior change and optimal mental health. Through counseling you examine the behaviors, thoughts and feelings that are causing difficulties in your life. You learn effective ways to deal with your problems by building upon personal strengths. A professional counselor will encourage your personal growth and development in ways that foster your interest and welfare."
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I would also point out another flaw. With billions of people on the planet I could come up with, given enough folks, a ton of case studies and anecdotal evidence that says that wearing a piece of metal on your wrist (bracelet) will cure many things. It does not make it so or else we would all be wearing QRAY bracelets and footpads.
-
I also noticed how you implied that psychotherapists are trying to keep clients simply for money. For mental health agencies that is certainly not true, at least none of the ones I know about. In fact if they are guilty of anything they are guilty of not seeing the clients long enough or often enough. There are 8 hours in a day and 24 hours worth of clients to see. Most therapists I know would be quite happy to put themselves out of work. And I see very few therapists (not counting MD's) driving around in their Rolls on the way to the Hamptons. Why don't you go check the average pay for therapists and compare it to other jobs? RN's with a 2 year degree make more than Counselors who are required to have a Masters.
-
With all that said I want to add that Psychiatry and psychotherapists are not the same thing. I am not all that overly fond of how the psychiatry profession has turned into what often appears to be pill pushers (medication management). Of course that is a gross generalization and I personally know some doc's that are not that way.
-
To end my little rant I want to say I am a fan of the truth or at least the truth as best we can understand it/proven through proper methods. Do no harm is important.

http://www.geocities.com/pseudoscience_2000/eft.htm

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/mentserv.html

JD, I am certain that you are, as you say, a "fan of the truth or at least the truth as we best understand it." That statement sums up my own feelings, too. What I stated was:

"In fact, the therapeutic goal of typical psychotherapy is not to resolve or 'cure' a client's problem, but to help them get to a place where they can cope with having the problem, and have a reasonably successful life in spite of continuing to have the problem."

What you responded with, from the ACA, actually states the same thing:

"...Through counseling you examine the behaviors, thoughts and feelings that are causing difficulties in your life. You learn effective ways to deal with your problems by building upon personal strengths."

Note that the ACA says that you "learn effective ways to deal with your problems", not "resolve your problems." The problems remain. They are not cured. You are taught by counselling to cope with them. Ask a therapist sometime, this question: "How many of your patients have you cured of the condition for which they came to you?"

The truth is, they will not say they have cured anyone because they cannot make such a statement. I don't mean to suggest that these people are venal and work only for money, although long term therapy is obviously an expensive undertaking for the client.

To deride EFT as "snake oil" when it has claimed many thousands of people who testify that it has cured them of distress is to suggest those people are ~wrong~ to have experienced relief. The further suggestion that the only benefits it delivers are from the placebo effect is ridiculous as an argument. What would be better, to have been the recipient of a placebo which caused a problem to resolve, quickly and inexpensively? Or to eschew that for a traditional method that provides only the ability to "deal with the problem" and costs many thousands of dollars?

--Jack

Your defense of EFT is horribly flawed. By your logic it is acceptable for anyone to market and sell something that is nothing more than an inert substance and make all sorts of claims about it simply because some of its users report it worked (i.e. QRAY bracelet). EFT is not free nor cheap. With 6 billion + people in the world it is quite easy to get people to say something worked even when the product was junk. If anyone (that includes the pharma folks) want to make big claims they need to provide big proof. Real proof by accepted methods not ghost written crap or flawed studies. This applies to EFT as well.

The problem I have is that I think ALL these things need to be held to the same standard (that includes psychiatry). I have seen more snake oil adds on television then I see actual medications yet the anti-psych crowd often appears to be fine with this.

As for the ACA statement. If you learn how to fish you don't go hungry. Same applies with how problems. "Curing" you means that you need to be dependent on a therapist anytime you have a clinical problem. Learning how to deal with them without a therapist is the goal. There is no "cure" for being human. Assuming EFT works it still does not cure in anyway different than traditional therapy does. If you "cure" cancer it does not mean it won't come back.

Jack -

A little tidbit that jumps out about EFT from its creator Gary where he states "we do not claim that the results described in the many testimonials and other success stories included on this website and on our DVDs are typical of what EFT users experience"

Another thing that throws up the red flag is this:

This is why one of our sayings is, "Try it on everything." It is as close to a Universal Healing Aid as anything I've seen.

I personally see good things come from various alternative therapies, especially in an adjuctive role. Massage, Tai Chi, Yoge, are just a few that have benefits. But when people try to make claims such as the EFT and then turn around and admit to no valid proof, and a disclaimer even saying they do not claim the results they show people are typical ones...well that is a huge red flag. Some other things that leap out as red flags:

EFT often does the job for you cleanly and thoroughly in one or two sessions ... and we sometimes achieve noticeable results in a few brief rounds of EFT. We label these near-instant results as "one minute wonders."

You can also use it for everything from the common cold to multiple sclerosis

And there is more but I think it makes the point. Lets not have a double standard here and say that only some professions need valid proof and others do not. I would love if the claims made by eft were true. Their disclaimer shows the truth however. There is no silver bullet that can universally heal everything (other than death).

And here is a good article from the Skeptical Inquirer on called Can We Really Tap Our Problems Away? http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-07/thought-field-therapy.html

JD,

I'm not weighing in on the EFT thing but I think what your wrote below sums up so much of the problem with therapism and the biopsych line:

""Curing" you means that you need to be dependent on a therapist anytime you have a clinical problem. Learning how to deal with them without a therapist is the goal."

People certainly have right to buy and sell this stuff, it's selling it as science that creeps me out, but then you guys might not like the same panaceas as me. Telling you what I perceive has worked for me is fine, presenting fako pr crap and clothing it in the robe of science, crime (again I don't know about eft I'm talking therapism and psychiatry).

I haven't seen this thread since last autumn. JD, you seem bound and determined to refute EFT without examining it yourself personally. One way you have of dealing with it is to say that it's as ridiculous as a Q-Ray bracelet... then cite the flaws with the Q-Ray bracelet. You say that one thing that "proves" that EFT is b.s. is that it claims to be a Universal Healing Aid, and that no such thing could possibly exist. That's ridiculous. Isn't SLEEP a Universal Healing Aid? One of the premises of EFT is that all physical and emotional problems are a disruption of the flow of energy through the body. The tapping methods taught in EFT work to restore the proper flow of energy. That's why they can cure more than one condition.

You seem to think that EFT is a money-making scam. Please try to understand that EFT practitioners help individuals by guiding their sessions as the ~teach~ them the method. Once someone learns how to do EFT, they then to it on themselves and never have to pay a practitioner ever again. Does that sound like any scam you ever heard of? What other "therapist" trains you so that you won't need a therapist?

You say you would "love if the claims made by eft were true." Well, how would you know if they are true unless you learn about it and try it for yourself? If anybody writes a testimonial, you discount their statements by saying that with so many people in the world, you can get a handful of them to say anything. You're right about that, in that there ~are~ ripoffs that use testimonials in precisely that way--- but that doesn't get you any closer to the truth about EFT, because what if the people writing EFT testimonials are, in fact, genuine?

And you post a link to The Skeptical Inquirer --someone whose purpose in life is to dismiss ~every~ idea that doesn't fit his criteria.

The point of all of this is not who is right and who is wrong. It's to help find relief for people who are suffering. The current methods of dealing with PTSD are inadequate and even dangerous (prescribing benzodiazepine drugs long-term leads to a terrible dependency; see www.benzo.org.uk). I urge you to explore the EFT website (www.emofree.com) thoroughly, with an open mind, and call some of the EFT practitioners you can find at the website. In other words, ACTIVELY seek the truth, for yourself. If EFT turns out to be b.s., you will have lost nothing but some time. If it turns out to be, truly, a Universal Healing Aid? Think of the value to you of what you will have found!