I don't know if you have seen the video link on "Trouble with Spikol" website, a link to NBC report of the woman dead in emergency with fake medical report of her "alive" status. Check it out. The attending nurse actually kicks her, to wake her (dead body) up.

Shelly and her family need all of our support, please leave them kind and caring comments. Her story is one of enormous heart break.

I wish her and her husband peace, and send healing strength and hope to Shelly. Her children need her to survive this Paxil tragedy.

Anyone taking Paxil, should read her entire story, and hope it doens't happen to you.

Stephany at soulful sepulcher blog

what happened in NewYork with the woman dying in a psychiatric unit/ER eval site is not just terrible, it is malpractice.

I did not watch the above video, as I read the disclaimer by Philip and assume his take is accurate.

As I said in the 2007 Lamictal posting, you have to be patient and dedicated to a withdrawal program to minimize side effects. The biggest mistakes made by doctor and patient usually are due to
1. Too high a dose to begin tapering, and
2. taper too quickly and too steeply.

It is sad but true that some psych drugs, while not a risk outwardly for misuse or abuse, have dependency qualities because of tolerance and withdrawal. Remember, if you agree to take a medication, tell your doctor if you want to stop it, so it will not be a bad experience.

As always, enlightening and educational postings, Mr Philip.

tf, thank you for your advice. But advising us to tell your psychiatrist you want to discontinue a med is a joke, right?

Please spare me the recital of my legal rights. I know them and I'm an assertive woman. But the reality is, you either co-operate or you get dumped. Once you've been dumped no one else will take you as a patient. The denial in the profession is so strong that, other than dry mouth and a life-threatening problem I had with the LAST FRIGGIN' PSYCH DRUG I'll ever take (sorry for shouting) acknowledged privately by the psychiatrist who treated me for the problem (and then trashed me in his discharge summary to cover the prescribing doc's butt), I've never had a doctor acknowledge any other side effect or problem with any of the many meds they tried me on.

It's really hard for me to follow the logic that says "I prescribe a drug. You develop a new symptom within days. Nothing else has changed in your life. But that symptom CAN'T be the drug, oh no." If I said something that dopey I'd be told I was in denial. And rightly so.

The only time I've gotten off a psych med with the doctor's help was when I lied to him and told him I was trying to get pregnant (as if). He bought it and helped me get off the med. I felt bad about lying to him because I genuinely liked him as a person and I tend to be a straight shooter as a rule.

He was delighted with my news, as he believed having a baby would be a *wonderful* thing for me, for reasons I've never been able to fathom--obviously something of his own. In a final bizarre touch he also offered to come see me in the hospital after the (never to happen) birth because, in his words, "You're at high risk for post-partum depression".

I really liked this guy, he's a totally neat person. But honestly, therapyfirst, sometimes I feel like saying "Hey doc, I thought there was only supposed to be one crazy person in the room at a time" and this was one of those times.

That is my one and only success story in getting a doctor to help me get off a med. I had to learn how to do that on my own, without benefit of the internet or other patients. I learned the hard way the need to taper off and not just walk off a pharmaceutical cliff.

Sherry

I think there is more at work here than 'simple' Paxil withdrawal. She said she switched from Klonopin (6mg!!!) to Valium and was coming off of the Valium. She also said that she was on 28mg of Valium which is nowhere near the same dose of Klonopin she was taking. Six milligrams of Klonopin is closer to about 120mg of Valium.

Seizures are common if you withdraw from a benzodiazepine too rapidly. So now she's in the hospital on Morphine and they're going to pump her full of Ativan!?

I'm not trying to disparage this woman in any way, and I'm not saying Paxil didn't play a part. I just don't think everything that is happening to her is due to Paxil withdrawal.

I'm no Dr., and of course it's just my opinion. I wish her a quick recovery.

As of July 2, 2:21 pm the video is no longer availble.

I need to get off of Paxil. :( This video makes me sick to my stomach and sad for this woman.

I didn't watch the whole paxil video because it was too rambly as Philip warned, but I can back up what Roma is saying if multiple drugs were involved.

First of all Roma's right--- 6 mg of Klonopin is approximately 120 mg of Valium. If she switched over to a dose of Valium that was way to low that could induce a seizure and all sorts of other withdrawal symptoms on a par with going cold-turkey because the Valium dose was so low.

Benzo withdrawal can be just as bad as any SSRI withdrawal when done the wrong way especially for the 10 - 30% of people who have been shown to have extreme difficulties in withdrawal in studies done by Heather Ashton.

All psych drugs, in my experience can be horrible to withdraw from and the more you have in the mix the worse the potential for ugliness becomes.

There is a method that some ppl use to come off of benzos and that is to use Valium, it can get quite complex, this entire med removal /withdrawal. Shelly's baby was born addicted to Paxil; her story is one worth reading about.

Personally, my psychiatrist is whole-heartedly working with me removing my medications, listens carefully to withdrawal symptoms and really pays attention to it: because he rarely if ever has a patient walk him through the suffering.(details) I'm fortunate to have a psych like this (open-minded) but I am also educating him to something he seriously has not heard before--how bad withdrawals can be, and it's been a very interesting conversation when I go there.(and I do not say "educating" in a rude way, it's just he is learning about withdrawals from me re: Seroquel, Prozac, Xanax etc.)
(I have not taken Paxil).

Stephany,
I'm really glad for you. Nothing like that would ever happen in my region. It's denial, denial, denial all the way. Your experience is quite heartening.
Sherry

Synopsis of Shelly's story (as I recall it): Shelly suffered horrendous Paxil withdrawals and had to reinstate. Dr. rx'd Klonopin to help her cope with the w/d symptoms and she quickly became addicted. Once somewhat stable from the Paxil w/d she started to wean the Klon with terrible results. She then attempted using the Ashton method which her body did not respond well to, hence the hospital stay. Paxil withdrawal started the entire mess she finds herself in now.

While she might be enjoying immediate relief from the morphine and Ativan, I worry that they will only exacerbate her problems in the long run.

Taking drugs to get off other drugs is a losing battle---I see it again and again.

I wish Shelly the best, even though I don't know the ramifications of the polypharmacy. My daughter had to be hospitalized to finish coming down off Lamictal due to acute suicidality. It was the only way she felt she could be saved/safe.

I used to be able to be off these psych drugs and, while I'd be worse, I wouldn't be constantly in severe anxiety and OCD symptoms. However, I found out last year that I can't live without them. I took about two years to get off them completely (under my shrink's care), and I tried to cope for about a month, but I had more anxiety than I ever thought I would. I wanted to be free from these meds, because of the side effects and possible physical issues (including heart issues) I was and am again having. Several years before, a psychiatrist took me off one med to go on another, and I experienced similar anxiety, but he'd taken me off the drug too quickly, over a period of a couple of months or less, and so I thought I'd be okay this time. Not so.

I am scared to be on these meds, and scared to be off. No one understands. My heart skips or something, and my current shrink had me get an EKG (that's something I can say for her; no other one seemed to take my heart skipping complaints seriously), and indeed, there is a problem with my heart pacing and certain drugs. I wish I'd never been put on these drugs. What shocked me is, someone I'm very close to, I told her I have read that these drugs can cause brain damage, and I don't remember her exact words, but essentially, she said to me that a little brain damage may be worth it if my symptoms become manageable (which they aren't...not by a long shot).

There is something I do not understand here. Maybe one of you folks, Gianna, Therapy, someone with more drug experience than mine can explain this whole WD thing to me. If it is too long and too offtopic from these comments you can post it on my blog or email me.

Gianna and TherapyFirst and others saying, taper taper taper.

I do not dispute these WD symptoms at all but why oh why are you supposed to taper from these dangerous and addictive poisons yet not from other drugs?

Gianna you said using drugs to get off other drugs is a losing battle.

Well, in defense of cold turkey and drug therapy to get off other drugs I have noted a few things.

When I was living at the poverty level I had a homeless friend named Heather. Heather was a heroin addict big time. Heather got arrested for dealing other drugs to pay for it and was lucky to be diverted to rehab instead of jail. While in rehab she later told me that they basically knocked her out. She was on high doses of Ativan and she described her heroin WD to be uneventful. She slept right through it.

I have since met other folks who spent time in jail or in psych wards, detoxing, cold turkey, from alcoholism, coke addiction, heroin addiction etc. These people do not get to taper off their booze, their pot, their heroin, etc. In jail usually awaiting court date they suffer awful WD while confined to a cell without being able to be Ativaned out of it for a few days.

I myself went off 2 psych meds cold turkey after 6 months on them. I did it without supervision because I was deceiving my keepers intentionally. Later I was told I could have died from what I had done as I had been on exceptionally high doses for months. I remember my WD as being wonderful. I just became more alive and more alive by the hour as I became me again. I have no memory of any problems whatsoever. Now I realize with Gianna, 20 years of polypharmacy makes her story a league of it's own. But from my personal experience, if we do not consider 6 months to be a long time, then I would say it easy to get off lithium and trilafon if you are young, healthy, optimistic and you have no foreknowledge about how awful psych med WD is supposed to be, then you stand at least a 50-50 chance of an event free psych med withdrawal.

So why do psyche meds demand such long tapers when prisoners and psych patients are routinely forced into withdrawing from severely abusing alcohol, coke, etc etc, cold turkey?

So not only did my friend Heather successfully detox off heroin thanks to sleeping it out on Ativan, but I personally used medical cannabis to deal with simultaneous caffeine, sugar and nicotine withdrawal, cold turkey, successfully.

This tapering business reminds me of pulling a painful sliver out very sloooooowly when, if you are in pain and chaffing at the sliver, the easiest thing to do is yank it out and get it over with.

The half life of drugs lasts only so long, when they are gone, you are dealing with your own reactions to the drugs and not continuously dealing with the drug effects themselves on an ongoing basis. I don't know all the answers and I would like to which is why I reveal my ignorance here.

Does it all boil down to how long you have been on these drugs? Why do psyche med withdrawing patients get to taper slow with full support and prisoners and patients who are institutionalized get complete cold turkey WD regardless of whatever drugs they were on or for how long they were using them?

I personally have been in both jail and psych wards and I can testify they don't allow alcoholics to drink in moderation or heroin users to shoot up as they taper off.

Why the disparity?

Jane, some people can cold turkey off of psych meds without any problems. However, they are in the minority and the problem is if you do it, you won't know if you're not one of the lucky ones until it is too late.

Cold turkeying off of psych meds is the equivalent of blunt trauma to the brain due to the various changes these drugs have made to the brain. It would be like putting the car in reverse at 75 miles per hour.

So even though it may seem quicker to cold turkey a med, actually for most people who do that are going to have alot more problems than folks who taper a med slowly.

This article by Dr. Alice Lee-Bloem explains the differences between the issues of SSRI withdrawal vs. Heroin withdrawal. According to her, because heroin and other street drugs are water soluable, that is why people can be taken off of them in days. SSRI meds are fat soluable and because they get stored in fat pockets, that is why they are harder to get off of.
I assume other psych meds follow the same principle.


http://ssri-research.com/dangers_of_tapering

Not sure about alcohol withdrawal so I will pass on commenting about that.

Regarding having a good attitude, I would be careful with that type of statement even though I know you said it with good intentions. As one who is tapering slowly off of psyc meds, I don't disagree that it sure helps to have one. But when you're having the withdrawal symptoms from h-ll, a positive attitude doesn't help them go away. In fact, it is almost easier to simply say, "yup, life sucks today" as a way of accepting what is happening.

As far as the issue of using drugs to taper off of other meds, I will just make general comments because obviously, when you have a life threatening situation as Shelly had, there are exceptions to every rule. But generally and again, I mean this as no criticism of Shelley's treatment, is that using a benzo to get off other drugs creates its own problems because since benzos are addicting to most people, you now have to deal with separate withdrawal issues.

If she had seizures using the Ashton Protocol by substituting valium for Klonipin, personally, I would be worried that the same thing would happen once she starts trying to get off of the Ativan.

Again, I realize there weren't many options in her situation so I don't want anyone to think I am second guessing her treatment because I am not. But generally, that would be my concern.

AA

Jane, one more thing. Just because prisoners and institutionalized patients are forced to cold turkey psych meds doesn't mean it is right.

Thanks for the links AA. I did check them out. The whole fat soluble versus water soluble makes sense.

Since these drugs cause weight gain for a lot of people,you end up with even more fat in which to store that garbage. So it takes even longer to get off them.

So of course Big Pharma gets their cut going in and going out.

You make them money when you start on meds. When you come to the conclusion that might not be a good long term strategy now it takes you months or years to come off them? So Pharma gets their cut even when you want to nothing more to do with it. Swell.

Prisoners and institutionalized people are not forced to detox and withdraw cold turkey only from pyche meds but from other coping meds too like oxys, crank, marijuana, alcohol.

I guess they deserve to be force detoxed off that stuff because those are not government approved or industry standardized meds!

But if it's an ssri, I guess then it's morally wrong to force them to detox cold turkey.

Somewhere in there I think a drug is a drug is a drug.

When you are in jail the last thing they care about is getting you your fix regardless of what it is. That is why they call it the penal system.

Jane,
I've been told by a number of heroin users that cold-turkeying off heroin is much easier than getting off psych drugs...it's a generalization and not true in every case, but I've heard it several times now.

Cocaine, being that it's like stimulants used for ADD is also easier to get off of than neuroleptics, SSRI's and mood stabilizers.

Like AA said some people do cold turkey alright, but it's a dangerous proposition that can lead someone straight to the psych ward in a psychotic state worse off than before they were on drugs...I caution people not to cold turkey because that possibility is possibly not something some one will recover from at all.

And even young people can have severe problems...you were unusual. Though I did come off drugs more easily when I was young before I started taking them long term as well. Lithium in general as far as I can tell is pretty easy to come off of...I came off it twice with very minimal problems when I was very young. It's not a drug I have enough anecdotes on to make any generalization about.

Neuroleptics, SSRI's, mood stabilizers (other than Lithium) and benzos can all be sheer nightmares for a good percentage of folk---not EVERYONE but a good probably significant minority and perhaps a small majority. This stuff needs to be studied.

People who have been on say benzos or Lamictal for experience have been known to have severe and long painful withdrawals after only being on the drugs 2 - 4 weeks...not the norm but it happens.

that last sentence is supposed to be "for example" not for experience!

sorry!

Thanks Gianna,

That is really so sad to hear that.

That information should be common knowledge. I just don't know enough about it from personal experience to say much else substantial.

Obviously I am quite biased from what experiences I did have. From this I was able to take this away.

Painful and lasting withdrawal is not a guaranteed fate for everyone. My feeling is that unless you try cold turkey, you can't know for sure you won't have an event free withdrawal. You might be unnecessarily extending your time on those substances when you don't need to.

There is no way to know for sure if you are going to have evil withdrawal or none at all.

I guess I remember when the day I realized that these drugs were killing me slowly. I wanted them out of me. I wanted them out of me so bad I flat out escaped the facility and fled on foot through woods and back yards to gain physical distance from the ward. I could tell I was being poisoned and to my 15 year old mind it had to stop and it had stop then and there. It was righteous indignant rage and survival panic.

If you had said to my face there was a 89% chance I would die if I did that, I would have told you I'd take that chance. Quick death was preferable to death by inches. Voluntarily taking that stuff one more day was completely out of the question for me.

I hear where you are all coming from. I realize that the taper is a conservative, risk reducing method that is probably safer for some folks.

It just seems like such a waste to keep giving your money, your body and your life to Big Pharma when you have decided you are done with it.

You can decide you are done with them but they are not done with you.

It's like letting your boyfriend that you can't stand sleep in the same bed after you just had a horrible permanent breakup with him.

When I recall the taste of trilafon in my mouth every cell in my being starts to scream. There is no way you would have convinced me to taper back then.

Even now with all the scary stories and awful anecdotes and personal blogs, I doubt would taper because that's just how I am. I would deal with it one way or the other.

It not like I haven't had psychotic impulses, drug induced hallucinations and chemical withdrawal pains before and worked through them.

Maybe there is a gene that lets some of us get off easier or something. Maybe I was lucky or something.

I know what I said sounds reckless and impulsive but I know I am not the only that feels that way about withdrawal. You ask anyone that quits psych meds suddenly and cold turkey why they did it. They had had enough.

Anyway, thanks AA and thanks Gianna for elucidating that for me. I have much more experience with street drugs than with psych meds and I did not know what was up with that fat soluble thing.

AA, I think you realize I didn't mean to be unrealistic or preachy about having a good attitude about detoxing. I meant that whenever I quit something whether it was psyche meds or cigarettes I never thought I would fail and I was very excited, motivated and happy to be quitting. My attitude was positive when I went into it and I think that armored me a little against the awful parts.

A lot of those Symptoms of Protracted Withdrawal from the link you gave me also happen during short term withdrawal from street drugs too. Those symptoms are not limited to psych med wd.

Obviously I am not a psych med withdrawal guru so please don't anyone think I am offering advice here.

On February 16, 2000, I walked into a doctor's office with anxiety symptoms and minor depression that I had dealt with for most of my life. At the age of 3, I had my first panic attack. I remember it VERY well. Between then and the age of 21 I had many other anxiety disorders. I tried to hide most of what I felt until then. (My family didn't talk about such things.) At 21 I was rushed to the ER because my heart was pounding so hard, my chest was aching,I could not get a full breath, and I really believed I was having a heart attack. I was diagnosed with anxiety. That was in 1981. The doctor gave me an injection of seconal, Vitamin C tablets, and a prescription for sleeping pills. Over the next 19 yrs., I suffered one anxiety disorder after another. The depression symptoms came in 1997. The inability to sleep for more than an hour or two at a time (sometimes not being to sleep for days)began soon after. In January, 2000, my throat began to close up and I constantly felt as if I were going to choke. Finally, I decided to find a doctor who might be able to help me with these problems. He prescribed 20 mg. of Paxil daily. Within a week I felt completely alive for the first time in my life! Everything was vibrant and nothing could make me sad or afraid again. I slept like a log! Three hour afternoon naps, 14 hour nightly sleeping. My libido completely disappeared (much to my husband's dismay as we had enjoyed a very happy sex life until then)but I didn't care. I felt wonderful for the first time in my life! No anxiety! No depression! I was alive and happy! Forward to May, 2009. A few panic symptoms began to reappear. I told my doctor (new doctor by this time) that the paxil didn't seem to be working as well. She felt it was time to switch meds. We tried the 20 mg. to 10 mg., to 5 mg. (weekly intervals). By the 10 mg. drop I was zapping all over the place, barely able to walk without fear of falling over. I began to develop horrible flu-like symptoms (the worst joint and muscle aches imaginable). My doctor suggested I take the weaning slower. From 10 mg. to 15 mg. The "flu" was gone by that very afternoon. Forward to June, 2009. I dropped my 15 mg. dose to 10 mg. The zaps began the second day. By the second week of 10 mg., the flu-like symptoms hit full force. I decided to fight through it. I noticed that I was crying for no reason and at the most odd times - while washing dishes, folding clothes, trying to decide which toilet paper to buy at the store, for example. I was finding it more difficult to fall asleep, lying in bed for hours waiting. The flu-like symptoms worsened with each day. I began to think of suicide. I was never suicidal before but now it seemed like I might be capable of that. I didn't want to die, but I suddenly realized that killing myself wouldn't be impossible. Just random thoughts of that. Forward to July, 2009. I decreased from 10 mg. to 5 mg. The "flu" worsened. The zaps became more like seizures. I described it to my husband as "passing out for a few seconds but still being awake the whole time." Sleep was getting more difficult. Awful dreams. Only 5 or 6 hours of sleeping a night. Crying more and more. I began to feel like impending doom was awaiting me at every corner. Suicide seemed quite logical but I didn't WANT to die. Forward to August 10, 2009. After 3 days of locking myself in a totally dark bedroom, refusing to eat or drink, crying CONSTANTLY, feeling as if my head were exploding (Tylenol didn't touch the pain), unable to sleep at all, shaking so hard I could barely move, halucinating (I saw my dead grandfather who had killed himself nearly 20 yrs. ago), I believed that God wanted to kill me. I hid in my bedroom closet for the entire afternoon, convinced He was coming for me. I decided that it was time to die. I removed the blades from razors and hid them around my bedroom. I 'stole' my husband's pocketknife and placed it behind a family picture on my bedstand. Just in case. I decided to not eat or drink ever again until blissful death came and ended this horror. I was born and raised Catholic. Suicide is considered 'the big sin.' My grandfather's suicide brought much pain for our family. I believed that God was evil so killing myself couldn't be wrong. I truly believed He was causing all my suffering now to torment me and would eventually kill me because I now knew the truth about Him. I found myself thinking that the Paxil had dulled me to the 'truth' and now that I was weaning I could see that He was evil and He wanted to kill me to keep me from telling anyone. My husband realized that something was VERY wrong once he returned home that afternoon. I couldn't talk. I could barely move. I was dehydrated and starving. I refused to drink when he tried to make me. He threatened to take me to the hospital and I told him I would be dead before he got me to the car. I knew where the blades were and was fully prepared to use them on myself. He called our 2 sons into the room so that I could tell them that their mother had decided to give up on life and end it all. He phoned our older son and put him on speaker phone so I could tell him, too. (I guess this is what's called an 'intervention.') I didn't care. I told them goodbye and that I couldn't go on anymore. This went on for over an hour. By the grace of God Himself, I finally agreed to take 15 mg. of Paxil. Within an hour, I realized that I hadn't been thinking clearly at all. I realized that I DID NOT WANT TO DIE. I wanted help! I desperately needed help! When my mind cleared enough, I realized what I'd just put my husband and children through and I was so ashamed and shocked that I could possibly be capable of this! I'm a strong person, always have been. I'm the one everyone comes to for help and advice. My children call me their 'rock.' My husband credits me for everything he has in life. He took me to my doctor the very next day. I couldn't talk because I was still shaky from the events from the night before and I was so shocked and ashamed at what had happened. (I simply couldn't believe I was that person.) I sat in the corner of the office while the doctor and my husband discussed the last 3 days and my final meltdown. She actually asked my husband if he wanted to have me 'committed' for inpatient treatment! Those words hit me like bricks! Oh my God! How had I come to this point?? I kept waiting to wake up from this nightmare. This could not have possibly all happened. It was so far away from who and what I am and have been. My husband explained to my doctor that I did not need to be committed, I needed help with the withdrawals! She told me to immediately throw away the Paxil I had left and begin Buspar with klonopin at night to sleep. The zaps are still here, mild compared to the way I was feeling before. I'm terrified now that I might end up on that slope of doom again. Terrified. I never dreamed such a thing was possible with me, never even entered my mind ever, but it happened. It actually happened. My husband and I have made a pact that if he sees any symptoms (even the slightest indication of my 'slipping' in any way) he will take me to the ER immediately. I refuse to go through that horror again! I refuse to put my family through that ever again! Today is August 12, 2009. I am desperately trying to only think positive thoughts and determined to put what happened behind me and move forward. I know it will take a very long time to heal and I'm sure I will never forget. Now I'm desperate for answers...How long will the zaps go on? How long will I feel drained from withdrawing? When will Paxil be completely out of my system and when will my brain heal? As I sit here now, I regret seeking help for my anxiety and mild depression problems in February, 2000. I deeply regret that now. Those were so much easier than what I've gone through these last months withdrawing from this poison. I now have to take the Buspar and klonopin to try and recover from Paxil. I don't like the idea of being medicated, considering what's happened. But the alternative is unbearable. I dare the makers of Paxil to take their own medication for a year then stop. I'd like to see this done on national television, too. Evidence of whether Paxil withdrawals actually exist, since so many professionals are still in denial. Walk in my shoes, oh 'wise ones,' THEN tell me there's no such thing!