You had an extremely unusual doctor. While my doctor cooperated with me when I chose to go off meds he did so begrudgingly at first...slowly he's gotten totally on board and admits he's learned a ton from me...he is my local doc who prescribes for me...he is humble enough to allow me to work out of state with someone who is managing my extremely complex withdrawal from what was 7 meds.

That is what she does. Helps people avoid meds or helps them get off...

not all of us are so lucky. many of us would do better without drugs and are not given the opportunity and even "fired" from their psychiatrists for non-compliance...

anyway...I understood you situation...

While I never suggest people go off their meds I do clearly state in my writings that I think they are all neurotoxins and that alternatives abound if you look for them...

thanks for all you do Philip!!

Dear Philip:

On meds, off meds! Whatever floats someone’s boat and keeps them functioning in this life. That's a personal choice for each person and circumstance (As long as it’s their own choice and they have been informed of the real consequences involved!).

I can sure speak for myself here; and I have found psychiatrist to be a complete waste of time, full of lies, deception, and propaganda they shovel down patient’s throats like Cyanide time and time again. They are absolutely pro-med 99.9% of the time (because if they did anything else besides write scripts, they would be out of a frigging job. The vast majority of them couldn't practice real medicine if it was a Mac truck running over them). So it's an extraordinary anomaly to see or hear of even one actually admit that meds isn't the way to go for a person with bipolar 1.

Now I don't know or really care who this idiot twit TherapyFirst is (yes that was a personal attack! Just like he has been doing here for a while now to others! He must have sent you a big donation or something to that effect to have you back him up every time his vomit post grace this site. So feel free to ban me from this site and edit or censor my post if you wish since you are a true free speech person) this bozo who proclaims to be a psychiatrist here posting his self serving bullshit thinking he is somehow justifying himself and his so called voodoo profession.

I can tell you this much, I have a deep empathy for anyone stupid or unfortunate enough to see him as a patient. Though I would guess he’s either a burn out case or a poser anywise.

But this is the internet isn't it, so you can be anything you want be here right! Even a psychiatrist or Big Bird if you want!

I'm personally anti-drugs and anti-psychiatry because I have observed both destroy countless lives and almost my own in fact; without one of these Holier than thou Witch Doctors taking any personal responsibility for the damage they have inflicted on others, or even having the guts to admit they were just plain wrong.

Are there any psychiatrists out there ready to raise their hands today as guilty? I didn’t think so!
They know what they are handing out is poison to both body and mind; and yet they continue to justify their actions over and over again supported by Big Pharmaceutical , The twisted and corrupt FDA, and the APA that is just another political group of greedy egos stroking themselves off at others expense.
That’s my personal opinion; I’m sure others out there have their own, and can think for themselves.

Stan

I was talking with my psychiatrist and he said, "What do we do now?"
Introduce me your doctor Philip!
I second Gianna: "You had an extremely unusual doctor."

Not listening to patients is the biggest complaint. Not working with the patient is the problem.

One thing I should mention is that after years of bouts of suicidal ideation--largely driven by anti-depressants in my opinion--I hadn't had a suicidal image in my head for about a year.

I had drug-induced suicidal ideation during the 19 months I was tapering Effexor.
I had 4 terrible episodes of this withdrawal symptom.
I can clearly see that it was drug-induced and fortunately I had read that during withdrawal this symptom can appear. Thank you Charles Medawar, David Healy and others for describing this.
For no reason I felt suicidal ideation.
My life was fine but, for no reason, I started "wanting" to kill myself.
During the suicidal ideation time in the back of my mind there was a warning:
"-This is withdrawal, this is withdrawal, this is withdrawal..."
When I was a teenager I had so many problems with my family that sometimes I thought about killing myself.
I knew I was not going to do that but I've spend sometimes thinking about how could I kill myself after sleeping.
I slept and in the next morning I was happy going to school and not even remembered that I thought about dying.
But by the time I was feeling the drug-induced there was no reason. No reason whatsoever!
Just the feeling that "-I'm going to kill myself!"
look at the difference:

"-I'm going to kill myself!"
and
"- "-I'm wanting to kill myself!"

I also felt a tiny little urge to burn my skin with the cigarette.
Didn't do it and by the time I was feeling it I felt very strange for I knew I didn't WANT to burn myself.

I'm writing it because it's a very important, complex and subjective issue and I hope that this questions are raised by the mainstream media.
Can you please do it my dear mainstream journalist? It can happens to you or some of your acquaintances and I hope it never happens to a family member who has a gun on the hand.
I'm not sure if I had a gun I would be here.

You can publish it now Philip!
:)
Now I'm in total control of my emotions and wrote it with objectiveness.
That time was an outburst and I've remembered everything as if it was happening and cried a lot.
And you were ethic and kind enough not to publish it.
Thank you once again!

I can vouch for Philip here. He saw I was receiving questionable treatment from another psychiatrist and begged me to consult with his doctor. His doctor is amazing. He changed my medication (several years ago), I lost 60 pounds and remain stable, happy and on those same meds to this day. If it wasn’t for Philip’s experience and wisdom, I probably would still be taking 6 or 7 meds and feeling like crap on a daily basis. Thanks Philip!!!!

My psychiatrist is working with me to get off meds; he actually told me he doesn't want to medicate away my personality.

He has closely monitored my latest tapering off of Xanax, works with me on dosing so the junkie withdrawal side effects aren't as problematic(the shakes,stomach pain,sweats etc).

He also has taken notes on my horrific Seroquel withdrawals, listened and talked great discussions about pharma reps in the office (now they are banned there).

He has observed me survive the death of my father and many other personal mega-stressful events the last 7 months and often tells me how amazed I've done it without (typical)addition of any medications such as an anti depressant.

The goal being, reduce the meds in fact--so I could feel my feelings the way it should be.

So there we set out with a plan.Reduce meds during a crisis.

And it's working, I'm on less meds than I have been the last decade and feel better.

Philip, To the best of my knowledge, the leader, the patron saint of anti psychiatry, who is still alive by the way, is Thomas Szasz. He's a psychiatrist. Loren Mosher, a leading psychiatric dissident, was not just a psychiatrist but chief of the National Institute of Mental Health's Center for the Study of Schizophrenia. Then there's Peter Breggin. As an activist I know and respect often says, I'm not anti-psychiatrist, I'm anti psychiatry. It's a fine distinction. Some psychiatrists are bad. The zeitgeist in psychiatry has gone terribly wrong, and a good part of the objection to psychiatry comes from within.

Because of my precarious position, even I have a current file with a psychiatrist, one who doesn't believe in labels or drugs, or the sort of punitive, judgmental, life time monitoring and control "psychotherapy" some who hold themselves out as psychiatrists advocate on this blog and else where.

You do a good job of reporting your experiences while remaining neutral and you give others a forum to report their experiences, but, when dealing with such a serious topic, we all must remember that for the most part we've never met off line and no one should ever do anything because they read about it on the internet without also speaking with a real live, off line, flesh and blood human.

Help comes from the strangest places. These days, I've found advocate at NAMI who really gets it about people with psych labels being able to live without meds and work. Who'd a thunk it? Not that I'm joining up or anything?

Very well stated, Philip. In my work in the public mental health system (a 'tdoc' I am) I struggle often with questions of just who really needs meds. Many want/demand them for no justifiable (read 'clinical') reason. Others clearly need them and have demonstrated benefit, but still refuse them. I am heartened that your psychiatrist was willing to see that you might not have needed a lifelong regimen. Some do, but not all. I appreciate your balanced reporting and will continue to look for you daily.

Well spoken, sir. That is the reality of treatment when it is approached as an individual.

For what it is worth, thanks for this posting.

I admit to being surprised about the doctor too and think this all may have been more driven from your end than you may even realize. (Also it would be interesting to know if your doc was reading your blog!) Whatever the case, it's great that you were able to get off without great resistance from a psychiatric professional. Maybe there's hope! Although I think this is the same doctor who said "Once diagnosed, never undiagnosed." Isn't that correct? Now if you can get him to change his tune about that you really will have a revolutionary professional in your circle of acquaintances.

And while I agree with you that you probably shouldn't be advocating a universal off-meds protocol for everyone (because withdrawal can be so difficult and lengthy and specific to each case) I still think it's safe to be pointing out that this treatment is not disease specific, that the amelioration if it is perceived by the patient is not due to healing of depression, mania or psychosis but rather to brain changes (aka damage) caused by toxic effects of the drugs on neurons. Sorry to those of you taking meds but this really is what's going on. The brain is a marvelous organ though with lots of potential for recovery if given enough time.

Paper presented at the RCPsych claims that 40% patients cannot metabolise prescription antidepressants. Perhaps Phillip was such a patient?

Were you ever tested to see ?

Sara XXX

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/114040.php

Main Category: Depression
Also Included In: Genetics; Psychology / Psychiatry
Article Date: 05 Jul 2008 - 0:00 PDT

People who suffer depression that does not respond to medication could be treated successfully if a simple genetic blood test was made more widely available in the UK.

Four out of 10 people with depression have a genetic abnormality that prevents them responding to anti-depressant medication, according to research presented at the Royal College of Psychiatrists' Annual Meeting in London this week.

The research, which was carried out at the Mayo Clinic Mood Disorders Unit in the USA, showed that a quarter of those with a genetic abnormality produce a liver enzyme that either stops Prozac working or causes unpleasant side-effects.

Since 2003, the Mayo Clinic has offered genotyping to patients who either report significant side-effects to antidepressants or have no response.

They have identified four genes that interfere with the efficacy of antidepressant medication, including two that prevent metabolising the drug (CYP2D6 and CYP2C19) and two more that prevent the brain from absorbing or transporting serotonin.

Professor David Mrazek, chair of the Department of Psychiatry at the Mayo Clinic College of Medicine, said: "One in 10 of our patients have abnormal CYP2D6, the gene most commonly implicated in treatment-resistant depression. This means that they are poor at metabolising some common anti-depressant medication including Prozac and Seroxat. As a result, they may get adverse effects including nausea, headache, vomiting and sexual problems, from a regular or even low dose of the drug."

So far, genotyping - which costs about £150 per gene tested - is not widely available in the UK.

"The cost of the test may be a barrier to more frequent use of genotyping," Professor Mrazek said. "But most good insurance companies now pay for the test for people who have treatment-resistant depression, either because the drugs don't work or they suffer excessive side-effects. It is now proven beyond doubt that in many cases, unpleasant side effects can be avoided with this simple blood test."

Genotyping for depression became widely known in the USA following publication of the best-seller autobiography, Mommies Cry Too, by Carolyn Brink in 2006. Brink was diagnosed with severe postpartum depression shortly after the birth of her first child. But her treatment with three different antidepressants made the depression worse and led to suicidal feelings. She claimed the Mayo Clinic saved her life when the genotyping test showed that the antidepressant medication she was taking became toxic in her bloodstream due to her low metabolism rate for this type of medication.

Reference
The Annual Meeting of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, Imperial College, London, 1 - 4 July 2008

The Royal College of Psychiatrists
www.rcpsych.ac.uk

The motivation of the "normal" and those successfully medicated that say every mentally ill person should be/have to be on medication, comes from the thought, if the mentally ill can live without medication, who (as in which party) then is thinking and behaving "wrong"/ AKA mentally ill or the normal people. It shakes the foundation of who is sane and who is insane.

Philip,

Thank you for the insightful glimpse into what propelled you to become medication free.

People have been recovering from 'mental illness', medication free, for ages. In fact a book published in 1908 [one hundred years ago!] by Clifford Beers titled "A Mind that Found Itself" was one of the first books to influence the reform of the "insane asylums.

Just a suggestion - write a book about your whole experience with the mental health system. I think your writing is superb and you could do this.

I have never read the book by Clifford Beers but someone told me once, several years ago, that he said he recovered when he "found a friend". I think he was in asylums for several years. I plan to read his book this summer.

I bet truthman30 or Fiddy will be forced to enter the discussion...
As French people say: Uhhh lá lá lá lá lá lá!
:)

Ana LLL

laughing in advance!

Philip, once again congratulations. Your experience with your p-doc is making me think of renting a U-Haul and driving cross country to see him/her. At this point I am at the end of my rope, and would do anything, ANYTHING to get some semblance of life back to my life.

Right now I am going through Cymbalta withdrawal. This has been brought on by the approx 23 pdoc I have seen in 23 years when I was first diagnosed as manic depressive. I have also seen 15 therapists in the same amount of time.

I have not slept in 6 days, catching only half hour here, half hour there. Last night it felt like I was moulting, my skin turning inside out. I scratched so hard it started to bleed. This morning the pdoc gave me Trazadone to help me sleep, since the Klonepin is not giving me any relief. I took the Trazadone and now I am suffering from suicidal thoughts that would curl your hair. Plus the agitation. I'm smoking in the hope it will calm me down. I haven't smoked since college.

I don't have anyone in real life that can stay with me until this passes. I know how I feel, if I told any of my friends in real life, it would be a trip to the emergency room of the hospital and then a stay at the state hospital. The Snake Pit.

So I am sitting here on my sofa, laptop on my lap fighting it while the meds are eating up my brain and destroying my soul.

There is only so much more fighting left in me before I listen to the voices and drown. Hopefully it won't happen tonight.

I just want my life back. I want to be the person who was happy, intelligent, had a good career, friends, and the worst thing in my life health wise was PMS. I don't want these medications destroying my body anymore.

I want answers, and I just want- I want to be like those who are lucky to lead lives without these poisons in their body.

Yes, I meant to thank you for sharing the specifics of your treatment. It's always interesting to hear exactly what treatment preceded a decision to go off and how much of a taper each individual requires. There certainly seems to be quite a variation but the cumulative power of many specific stories helps to fill in some big gaps in knowledge in clinical practice.

That's such a great story! I work for an incredible psychiatrist who is very similiar to the one that encouraged you to get off your meds! I am actually working at getting off Adderall right now...it's a slow process...but, an encouraging one! Blessings!

What I am genuinely, genuinely curious about is perhaps something you skipped over at the end of the story -- why your Pdoc didn't just say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" with the Lamictal. The way you tell the story, your main concern (once you'd gotten to Lamictal and Ativan) was with the benzo, not the Lamictal. But maybe I read it wrong.

In any case, Godspeed with the continued journey.

PS -- Since I personally (IRL) know your commenter Susan, I send comforting thoughts to her ...

Woah, what a story Phil.

You have been through the wars man..

I think the best decision I ever made was to come off meds (and to echo Philip I am not advising this either, everyone is different and people make their own choices )

For me the meds clouded my personality and my mind...

So glad I got off the psych drug merry go round when I did though...

Boy, that's a success story I don't hear every day.

I'd like my psychiatrist to pull me off of Lamictal as well but he likens it to cholesterol medication. If I'm doing well on it, why would I want to come off of it and have my cholesterol level go up?

Stuck I am.

My psychiatrist pushed me to go off Neurontin several years ago, it was her idea, not mine and it took a lot of convincing for me to agree. I'm glad she convinced me finally. I think it happens more often than we hear about. She also removed my bipolar diagnosis from my chart a few years later.

Susan,
You'll get through this, and you know you can count on me, and everyone else to be there for you, as Larry posted, sending good thoughts your way!
The thing with pdocs is that when a person finds one, screen them by bouncing your ideas and concerns off of the discussion table. Ask if they believe in withdrawals, or off meds all of it.

We HIRE these people.They must reflect who we are and what we believe in to some degree, otherwise why go to them?

Ultimately, though in my opinion and based on my own experience it is what we do as patients that truly is what gains control in our lives.

I'm not a passive patient. I enter the room in a a discussion, that I would hope would be passionate, lively and full of information. I consider my pysch my equal in that sense; if that makes sense.

Anyone can read the DSM.

Good luck to all, finding their way, off or on meds.

For those who are getting off of SSRIs:
I finally had the courage to tell the story of one of my suicide attempts while I was tapering off Efexor.
Please, those who are on this process search for it on the Web!
This is very serious and, please, don't you dare to become an statistics!
Even if you don't feel like talking to anyone about suicidal ideas: DO IT! TALK TO ANYONE!
If you want to kill yourself because YOU cannot stand anymore I have nothing to say to you.
But if a drug-induced suicidal ideation is planted on your brain I BEG YOU TO SEARCH FOR HELP.
You will know the difference between the withdrawal imposition to kill yourself and the REAL EXIT you want.
But the drug induced suicide ideation IS VERY POWERFUL!
Just take a look at ssristories.com and take a look HOW STRONG THIS FEELING IS!
Thank you!
I'll tell the second time I've tried soon.

Boy, I got edited out. All I did was as therapyfirst a question.

Sorry, Philip. My bad. I posted it on another article.

sophia, what do you mean you got edited out? i'm the only here who can edit anything and i didn't and i don't.

I mean I spaced out and got it wrong. My apologies. Sometimes I can barely keep things straight.

I'm glad to hear that you have a doctor who is open-minded and willing to work with you to determine what's right for your body. I have a psychiatrist whom I don't get along with, and for our first meeting, we were at each others' throats (not fun - you can read that story here, in case you're interested: http://realmental.org/blog/archives/262). I have my second appointment with her tomorrow. Wish me luck!

to Savia:

"...we were at each other's throats.."?

Why would you want to return to a provider if that is how the visit transpired? I have had a few difficult sessions with patients in the first evaluation session, and I would hope a responsible provider would have to say to a patient who is being provocative/inappropriate/spewing misperceptions that he/she would have to see someone else who could work with them if we could not find a middle ground to pursue reasonable follow up.

If a patient accuses me of the above issues, which actually happened recently regarding the request for benzo's, as this person has a history of substance abuse and minimizing seeing a therapist, I very straightforwardly said the person should seek out a second opinion as I will not be compromised on a position that does not facilitate a healthy direction. The person ended the visit somewhat receptive to my position, but I sense this was our last visit regardless.

Providers should not be at a patient's throat. I hope you will find a middle ground if you do follow up with this provider, and if not, try to get a couple of names for second opinions: that much a doctor should provide.

Hope this is of value.