So serotonine has nothing to do with depression any longer since Seroquel deals with dopamine.
If I remember correctly we were told that depression is a chemical imbalance of serotonine and SSRIs, Serotonine yadda yadda yadda are antidepressants.
This is becoming a comedy.
Unfortunately with great risk not only to mental health but to the whole body.

Posted by: Ana at June 10, 2008 09:02 AM

That's how they got the XR version here in the first place. They start in Europe, and make a smooth transition over to the states within months or a year.

Personally, after taking Seroquel, I cannot imagine using this drug for depression. If a person suffers extreme depression and for example, some say they cannot move, get out of bed or stop sleeping....well I guarantee they will not move or stop sleeping on Seroquel XR.

Marketing an antipsychotic disguised as an antidepressant is dangerous and another example of how these companies have no human consideration involved. Just money.

Posted by: Stephany at June 10, 2008 09:52 AM

This has been a hot button issue for me for quite some time. Astra Zeneca, the mother of this drug, got so giddy when they were declared the number 1 antipsychotic prescribed about 2 years ago and the profit margin wiped out any responsible focus on pursuing realistic indications. Now they, like Lilly before them with Zyprexa, want it all! For what it is worth, I spent a month asking clinicians at Carlat's blog to comment about their opinion to the role of antipsychotics, Seroquel as an example, being used outside of Schizophrenia or mania management, and NO ONE of substance made any statement of concern or debate. My colleagues are idiots if they think there is an indication for these drugs as first line meds for depression or anxiety. I have seen a significant number of patients who I have helped by either reducing the dose or stopping these meds entirely due to this FASCINATING side effect by antipsychotics, in general mind you, of emotional numbing if not depressing the individual.

Seroquel has its place, that much is true. But not at the dosages or diagnosis I am seeing it prescribed for these days. And, a lot of the time antipsychotics can be weaned and stopped once a person is "on cruise control", ie the patient and supports note stability is well in place.

Watch how Bristol Myers is whoring Abilify these days. I find the sales reps deplorable!

You think these companies would have learned from watching Lilly's shameful parade with Zyprexa and the resulting class action law suit they LOST in 06!!!

Again, deeds not words. If you deal with a psychiatrist, don't be afraid to ask tough questions about their beliefs and agendas. A responsible doc has no stock in a company, doesn't push pharma lit with their scripts, and is willing to look at alternatives if there is hesitation to the recommendation.

XR= excessive recommendation!!!

Posted by: therapyfirst at June 10, 2008 11:43 AM

Criminal. If I had 100 million dollars I would put wall to wall attack ads on television. Maybe George Soros has a nephew that's been done over by psychiatry and he will give me a grant. Kidding.

I heard the blogger on Madness Radio. I wanted to say to you that I understand your need to use 'shorthand' and not say 'people diagnosed with sz' etc. You mainly seem to think it is the 'stigma' I would have a problem with when you continue to use the shorthand. It's not, although I do have a slight problem with that. The main reason I would like to see a complete shift in your use of language on this site in the main posts when describing schizophrenics or any diagnosis is that when reading it, it simply trips the mind up and all the connotations of lifelong disease come into it.

Lifelong illness is completely manufactured IMO. Show me are rare years long acute psychosis that was organic I might change my tune slightly. One that wasn't mucked with by splashing chemistry all around the skull.

Mostly IMO you're only dealing with people who have had an initial human distress event, a psychosis, precipitated by civilizational factors, drug abuse in some cases, family trauma, experiential trauma, even environmental pollutants stand a greater chance of having some contribution than genetics and an organic disease. This is then invariably conflated, inflated, perturbed, prolonged, exacerbated, by the ideologues who will be staffing the 'safe' place you'll be taken.

We know that drugs can cause psychosis. We know that our own guesswork pharmacology in our experimentation with street drugs can cause psychosis.

What kind of a lunatic takes a psychotic individual, heaps his or her brain with varying degrees of guesswork polypharmacy, tapers up, down and around, and expects it to not fuel the fire and even come back ten times stronger as soon as the drug is removed? it's a system trying to heal, getting used to an IMPOSED unnatural platform and substrate, and then getting the rug pulled from it. The fact that delusions dissipate in spite of the chemical assault thrown at psychosis is testament to the STRENGTH of the human brain, not the weakness, defectiveness, inferiority of these people's brains.

Add to that the psychosocial destruction of being overnight placed in the hopeless basket, lifelong pariah basket without any objective test. Returning to life doped up and with a new branding on your forehead... you're bound to be under extreme stress, and it is bound to happen again... or at least 'depression' is bound to occur in this bleak world the shrinks have thrown you into. It's like you were manic one time, then we destroyed your hope for the future and life and reputation, now you're depressed! instant manic depression cycle tailor made.

When you talk about the "violent schizophrenics' on the madness radio show, using that term cant help but paint a picture of someone who has a disease, and at any moment could slip into psychosis depending on whether the defective brain decides to strike the patient down. How could society not want to control such a risk? The fact is this sort of person doesn't even exist.

There is no 'violent schizophrenic' who doesn't carry on board his skeleton a brain that's been fucked with every which way but loose by guesswork drugs, chronic stress of being an underclass member with otherness coloring his whole existence, and is manufactured into a volatile imbalanced human being by the very treatment he has received, at the hands of people's words and ideas about him, and very much so at the hands of the chemical bloodletting that his neurology has been forced to endure for many years.

The very fact that I know I would be dead if had have gotten a diagnosis one notch higher on the scale says it all. And I don't say that as in 'if my brain had a worse disease'. I completely and utterly refer to the man made external destruction on my whole world and brain that would have been done to me in the name of 'help'.

When you use the diagnoses as nouns without pointing out they are (the labels themselves) subjective opinions of full of contradictions, I just think it limits the reform you could ever strive for. Not to mention it makes it sound like all the 'schizophrenics' have the same life outcomes and are subject to without warning snap and shoot up a shopping mall.

Aside, this is the gold standard blog to tune into and vomit at the antics of greed and intellectual dishonesty that pervade every heartbeat of mental health. And you deserve credit for such.

But I am firm. There are no 'phases' in the life course of someone saddled with cross to bear of a schizophrenia label. There is an initial psychosis, always explainable, followed by a profession stabbing the person in the eye for life, and resultantly, it looks like the course of his life is a furious sea of ups and downs.
Looks like it, and feels like it. But most importantly, looks like it to any statistic minded 'researcher' who might care to weigh groups of these people's outcomes in life.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing you he didn't exist. And concurrently, when you have treatments and side effects that generate the classic societal notion of the appearance of mental illness, you have the perfect crime, though its not done in malice, I understand that. But it is a crime. And I for one completely fail to see how sitting young first episode psychosis teens and young adults down as soon as they wake up and telling them ok 'this is how it's gonna work, you're gonna go insane again and again, you're gonna spend all your money when you are 40 on a shopping spree, you're gonna have to take meds forever' I fail to see how you're gonna get any other outcome than a lifespan that plays out looking suspiciously like a long term disease.

Now do this to millions of people over decades, and study it every which way but loose, and have the training institutions perpetuate the myths made by the mythmakers, have some real life examples of human beings in years long shambolic go nowhere disability too scared to even make a start in life with all hope being robbed from them by the 'experts' they trusted... and you've got the recipe for long term mental distress. Cut up their brains when they are dead and marvel at the drug damage and call it a defect.

All the medications are just treading water loads of rubbish. There's no objective proven defective neurology, no established agreed upon drug action for a neuromechanics of disease action. It's just a complete mess.

And you know what in a small sick way I am glad they are starting to kill children. Because maybe we can get a reappraisal of what they are doing to adults. And the elderly. And broader society's conceptions of what it means to be human. The adults know deep down through the med haze what they have lost. Kids don't know what they are missing out on yet.

When someone can lose touch with reality for two days after a bad childhood or taking some drugs... and come out a week later as a worthless human being with no right, or no confidence to ever live a day on their organic neurology again, it's a nightmare world.

When someone is turned into some subhuman defective animal whose brain post mortem is sought after to be placed in a jar as though they are piece of meat, all because they suffered some human distress and fell victim to the modern day Dr. Mengele's in psychiatry, it's a sad sad world.

Coercive feeder mechanisms and laws for psychiatry's core business were the proving ground for drugs that have never even been proven. If you have a situation where psychosocially distressed people who are briefly psychotic are seen as open fodder for experimentation as you did and do, you get industrial dyes injected to us, if we are not cut open, and those guesswork assaults slow down the neurology in a wanton way, and you have the whole psychopharmaceutical revolution from there... it all grew...

every med you ever talk about on this site, has its root in human rights violations of the most grievous and grisly kind that took place in the 1940s in the initial experiments on innocents with early rough drafts of thorazine. The proving ground has always been those who the state hands over and says slice em up, or dope em up... and when you look at the standard of evidence we require before we turn people's lives upside down it is obscenely NO evidence.

Mere opinion. And opinion of a profession whose entire financial lifeblood depends on its own opinions carrying weight. Nowadays backed by a billion dollar disease mongering tv ad machine. And their trade union is the same body that disseminates the latest science to the media.

Every pill you take contains the ashes of those wantonly experimented on as far as I am concerned. Clearly we don't value our neurology, or we have been sold a line to be filled with fear and terror that oblivion awaits us if we are not under psychiatric control. Psychiatry is in love with its theories, drunk on its rubric of scientific sounding spin, and it dances with our lives, the futures of our families, not least our good names.

Placing a guesswork amount or any amount of ecstasy in my brain today would be called 'drug abuse' by society. Yet some lunatic who has read a few textbooks and walked around a prison/hospital ward for a couple of years taking notes and being condescending to people in distress, can take a needle full of droperidol which causes heart attacks, and tranquilize me like he is on african safari, and that is called 'treatment'. The closest my head has come to an MRI is in front a laptop looking at the propaganda on schizophrenia.com and this is treatment for a brain disease. The people that do this actually have parents that proudly say 'my son the doctor'.

I'm supposed to change the way I live, the way I think, for life, the way others see me, the way I intend to breed, the way I stand before the law, the way I stand in international travel, working with children, running for public office, the way I drink socially, the way I date, marry, all because I lost touch with reality for two days. Oh and two days again when some retard applied some polypharmacy to me four years later when I was already stressed to the shithouse with my busted shambolic life. I'm not buying into it anymore.

Long term mental illness. Man Made. Wrapped in a ribbon. Killing someone and sitting in a cushy prison cell with your organic neurology unperturbed getting three square meals a day doing push ups and society hating you sounds better than ten years with a schizophrenia label.

People can we get some stories of recovery in the face of such iatrogenic harm happening? Someone write some nonfiction biographies or some thing, we need to explain to these rote learner textbook hugging fools the harm they do. Bulls in china shops in people's lives and very souls for goodness sake.

We need more recovery. There is no ethical mandate for setting people up to fail the way they all are!!!! There just isn't. It is criminal. Do the politicians know what is being said to first episode psychoses sufferers? Do they know you wouldn't even need the phrase 'first episode' and wouldn't even be episodic if people's lives didn't turn into a nightmare ten times scarier than psychosis from the moment they wake up in hospital and start getting 'educated' about their 'diseases'?

Life is too hard to get through without man made disasters. How bad would I feel now if nature hit me with a real disease like cancer? What an unfair life that would be.

I see no reason to be dependent on shrinks to live. Especially when the shambolic life they are offering is a fate worse than death, and in no way resembles anyone's life before they ever saw a shrink. This is true, you're either in a shambolic state, or a deluded state and under the placebo effect as far as I am concerned. And you can't tell me your cognitive function is the way nature intended under assault from these drugs. You can't even tell me experience the passage of time in the same way, let alone experience a sunset.

No chemical imbalance for psych disorder ever diagnosed with objective technology in the history of man. Yet hundreds of millions of living human beings running around this planet with weird abnormal never seen before in the evolution of any mammal brain chemistry due to drugs prescribed by people who've never even seen inside these people's brains.

These people are breeding and breastfeeding. These people are driving in the opposite lane on the highway to you. They are flying planes and driving trains. They are governing. They are policing with guns on their sides. They are teaching our kids, solving global warming, designing the very drugs they are taking probably. They are playing playstations, they are falling in love, making life decisions, voting, working, making investment decisions, making this century's art, watching sunrises, sunsets, laughing, crying, hating, loving, dying, adapting, sleeping, having orgasms, taking illicit drugs, getting drunk, smoking, taking exams, all with brain chemistry the likes of which the world has never seen thanks to guesswork meds with no known disease curing action. In a century where our decision as a species really count, we are running around with more psychoactive guesswork than ever imaginable running through our brains and bodies. There is sperm and eggs in liquid nitrogen with doses of prozac in it that people are storing for the future. There's fish living in parts per billion of our collective urine when we piss these drugs out into the drains and into the sea.

Even if you feel you're doing better now that you have a name for your pain. You're feeling better on the back of other's whose suffering you enable with your consent for the existence of this pig science. And even if you say to yourself you are feeling better. You must wonder deep down what the meds are doing to you, and if you've explored all the psychosocial alternatives. Which include by the way self study and normal life growth.

You're not a child. You're not dumb either. If you've never been shown evidence there is a chemical malfunction in your brain, I can't understand why you would hinder the functioning of that brain. I guarantee you, all medicated brains are crying out to be relieved of the toxic assault they are under. Chemical compounds whose names will go down in infamy given enough time. Chemicals whose names nature never uttered. What he hell are you doing to your brain? Your liver hates the pressure it is under too. We didn't evolve for billions of years from the primordial soup to withstand attacks on our brains from a pack of liars. Most of the doctors wouldn't touch the shit themselves.

Buy now, pay later.

Posted by: Poe at June 10, 2008 12:28 PM

Here he is again with "A responsible doc has no stock in a company, doesn't push pharma lit with their scripts, and is willing to look at alternatives if there is hesitation to the recommendation."

Sorry Doc... without those companies you wouldn't exist. I'd call that 'stock' in itself.

Your diploma on the wall is pharma lit as far as I am concerned.

And I'm not surprised that those you asked for comment on another blog voiced no concern. Just proves you're all sheep. Been taking a nap from objective thought since the day you opened a psych textbook in college, the lot of you.

Fancy saying a responsible doc doesn't have stock in the company... are you kidding me?

Your entire science is founded on pharma funded BS. You couldn't exist without pharma. You're all responsible docs, responsible for graves filling up that is.

Is this guy for real? A responsible doc doesn't have stock in the company!!! like he could be more invested in its existence if he tried!!!!

And it is obscene what you say about 'numbing'... maybe you're discovering you've been masking people's spirits for 15 years with weird unnatural drugs. How about them apples?

Neuroleptics or 'mind clamps' are the cornerstone of your esteemed 'science' doc. If you diss them you have to diss everything else they spawned. Which is everything in the book.

Posted by: Poe at June 10, 2008 12:50 PM

TF- find that article you said you have when we discussed this over at Carlat's ---when I said Seroquel should be considered a controlled substance and psych docs should stop giving out free samples, per it being addictive and abusable! and post it here!

Posted by: Stephany at June 10, 2008 01:20 PM

Poe,

I love you.

Posted by: Jane at June 10, 2008 02:54 PM

Seroquel XR version?
I didn't know about it.
Stephany,
You are right. Seroquel is highly addictive.
I was put on 700 mg and could only withdraw 500 mg.
It's beyond comprehension Seroquel being prescribed for depression especially in XR version.
I agree with you that it will be difficult for depressed people to get out of bed.
They are already prescribing off-label Seroquel for everything.
They only will have the approval.

Posted by: Ana at June 10, 2008 04:28 PM

Poe, You should consider starting a blog. You have some powerful things to say and I can tell they come from the heart.

Posted by: Sara at June 10, 2008 04:59 PM

poe, i agree with sara. not that your comments aren't welcome here.

Posted by: Philip Dawdy at June 10, 2008 05:14 PM

I may not be crazy, but I am not an all or nothing kind of guy. At the moment I'm doing nothing. Well actually i'm training in a career separate from mental health so I can work part time on this issue and retire young and do full time activism.

If I wanted to live my label and draw disability for the rest of my life no one could stop me. I'm just sick of the indignity of it all though. In all likelihood I'm gonna work hard in this other sector of the economy and heavily invest 50% of my salary for ten years and then live off an amount similar to disability from my own investments. Kind of like a manufactured endowment to sit at home and write books and do websites or something. Maybe a holiday here and there. I've decided to rent for the rest of my life. The only reason I am even going to get this job and degree is so that none of my money is dependent on me identifying as having a disease.

It will also shut my family up when I go and 'interact' in the 'real world' for some years. And again, when someone renders you disabled, and you continue to act disabled forever, you'll be seen as disabled. Especially when you are completely well apart from psychiatry induced trauma, people will call you a malingerer.

I don't know it's hard to keep the faith for so long. I've got no problem having the courage to stand alone, but when no one who you see face to face understands your radical positions, it is lonely. I've been fine being lonely for many years, as introspection saves your life in mental health, but maybe I'm reaching the end of that loneliness tether.

Maybe I should get a girlfriend. Gotta lose the penchant I have for self abuse first. You see when the state and psychiatry don't care what goes into your body, you end up not caring and you get in habits. I smoke and I've gotta lose my zyprexa weight yet. And more than that I've got to be a nice person to be around for said girlfriend. I'm an angry traumatized dude at the moment. No one wants to hear my crap as they say.

It's so far reaching... I never thought I'd have to watch grandparents die with them in tacit disagreement with me on the issue so close to my heart. And I know all their opinions are formed with nothing but media spin, folklore and myth. So I'm left wishing someone who is dead could have understood my life. The cascade effects never end with this issue. I'll probably be thinking about the day I pass away. Yet no one will ever pay for it but me.

Tom Szasz and others talked me down from training as a psychologist. There is no money in antipsychiatry unless you write books. I plan on doing a book.

There's no scope for autonomous psychotherapy anymore. Psychology is just the talking branch of psychiatry. All the training is DSM focused, true believers in the notion the distressed human beings have inferior minds, brains you name it. It seemed like a hostile working environment for someone like me. And even if I did start a private practice, which is the only thing I would ever consider doing because managed care is a controlled joke, the people I want to help wouldn't be able to afford to pay me. I'm not about to spend three days marriage counselling to do two days pro bono 'labeled schizophrenic' work. How can you even get access to someone on court ordered forced meds anyway? They are always in control.

I don't know. I'm sort of able to do all my college work over a rapid period of intensity every semester and then cruise round online the rest of the time, when I should be starting my book. I've got most of the research done. Christ I should be getting fit and giving myself the best shot against what the meds have probably done to my heart. My liver is in terrible shape. I have fatty liver. I have ultrasounds and levels done regularly. It's a worry. All from the atypicals. I should stop smoking. But all I see is a negligent silent consenting public content to hang me out to dry for life. And I wouldn't even be alive or have organic neurology to enjoy life if it hadn't been for my own actions... so I kind of am going through a process of 'forgiving' my fellow man in a way. I'm not a total hermit by any means. I do harbor resentment though.

I don't know. I'm actually seeing a psychologist to clean up psychiatry's mess. I still suffer from the problem of deciding how to get over obscene harm done to me that I will never get justice for. I don't know that he is helping. What i'd really like to do is go and meet those freedom center guys but I don't have the cash. I need to actually some guys who have done what I have done.

You can't sue for malpractice when they will just hide behind the subjectivity of diagnoses. You see diagnoses are 'objective' everywhere but in a court room, make that a civil case tort law court room actually.

I still become out of control angry living in a world where only a select group of people on the internet even understand the harm done to me. No validation from family, friends, the law, the state that violated me, it's a tough thing to face and begin your adult life with. All anyone else cares about is 'when are you going to productive in the economy and stop being a slacker'

I've got the potential to do some good things. Things I would actually enjoy. This is the only game in town as far as I am concerned. But alas I will be forced to endure at least a decade of working primarily for money. Hopefully I invest and save extraordinarily well so I can be free to throw into this issue in a big way. I've chosen the most amiable wage slavery I could think of rest assured. But it won't be my labor of love. Mental health activism will always be my labor of love.

I don't know, life after psychiatry is never the same. It's like a sharp stinking cheese. You can't just pick up your former life dreams because you've seen the dark side. I barely know how to enjoy going for a walk in the sun knowing all the harm that is going on around the world to the kids etc..

I really don't know. Mainly I find solace looking at a bird outside, or the sky, and knowing the things I see are coming into my brain unadulterated by a chemical haze. The human world kind of disgusts me.

A world prepared to let somalia fester for 20 years, and let africa starve, can hardly be expected to suddenly dawn an age of reason in mental health. I don't know. I'm having a very weak day today. Very weak. It's good to hear some positive comments from you.

I don't know I can handle it if I see another person get a huge payout for being burned with a hot coffee. As a matter of fact I wish my childhood was spent some other way than being told by the society that those wronged could expect a right to justice. The only reason I 'feel' entitled is because it was drummed into me all my life that people do have a right to free from harm.

When harm lasts thousands of days and grows in intensity, its hard to land again.

Posted by: Poe at June 10, 2008 09:58 PM

Poe, Get going on that book. A lot of us here on this blog want to write books (including me) and we sit here and write comments on our own blogs, if we have them, or this blog and a few others which I am not saying isn't entertaining and useful, but we need to think long and hard about whether we can't get a book out there that would get to a wider audience and frame the message with more integrity, in one complete package. As I've often said here I'm really sorry so many of you are dealing with such awful fall out from being labeled and being on psych meds for years. It makes my blood boil. At least you're alive -- my daughter isn't. But I really hope you all land somewhere and make a difference with the amazing stories you have to tell. Please try and get them out there.

Posted by: Sara at June 11, 2008 09:26 AM

Just make sure to include how much modern psychiatry has helped some people, too, Poe.

Posted by: cairn at June 11, 2008 02:35 PM

cairn,
Why don't you go to support those who were helped by modern psychiatry spread the news?
You would not be wasting your time and would also do some good.

Poe,
I'm writing a book. It already has a shape but I have to gather all data I can. And it's not the right time to raise this issues around here. I'll have to wait a while.
I believe that your experience and the way you write can help lots of people.
As you all must have notice I've open a blog. :o)
The last sentence must be read as a whisper.
I don't know why I forgot what I have to say.
But at least I'll spare Phillip of having data that has nothing to do with the post.

Posted by: Ana at June 11, 2008 05:17 PM

Amen to Cairn's last posting. Even Poe would have to admit in the worst case scenario, a broken clock is right twice a day.

Maybe the negativity of many of the commenters drives away the optimism of those who have had good experiences with care.

Think about it.

Posted by: therapyfirst at June 11, 2008 06:55 PM

ana, you havent forgotten what to say; it's a writing prompt you need, which in this case (as for myself)this forum does that, i end up writing more everywhere else, and even in my own comment section than in my posts!

Posted by: Stephany at June 11, 2008 08:51 PM

Congratulations, Ana, on starting a blog. Good Luck with it.

Posted by: Sara at June 11, 2008 09:49 PM

Poe,
I've saved your last comment.
There are many good comments on blogs and it would be great to find a way to have access to them.
I've noticed that you've are writing more softly and have balanced your anger.
Whenever I feel angry about it all I keep reminding myself that if I don't stop this anger "they" will beat me again for anger has a destructive power on us.
Of course we can use it in a constructive way. I believe that's what we're doing.
However I rather try hard to calm down this anger for it's much more better for me not to be overwhelmed by this feeling.

Stephany,
You're right. This blog has this incredible power!
We are confronted with the issues and we feel the need to express ourselves.

Thank you Sara. I'll try hard.

Posted by: Ana at June 12, 2008 04:14 AM

How could society not want to control such a risk? The fact is this sort of person doesn't even exist.

There is no 'violent schizophrenic' who doesn't carry on board his skeleton a brain that's been fucked with every which way but loose by guesswork drugs, chronic stress of being an underclass member with otherness coloring his whole existence, and is manufactured into a volatile imbalanced human being by the very treatment he has received, at the hands of people's words and ideas about him, and very much so at the hands of the chemical bloodletting that his neurology has been forced to endure for many years.

Blather. My late brother tortured god knows how many animals, neighbors, siblings, me, burned down at least two houses, robbed and terrorized post offices and convenience stores decades before he was labeled paranoid schizo and went on his post-diagnosis and final killing spree.

Posted by: flawedplan at June 12, 2008 07:25 AM

Poe,
I'm writing a book. It already has a shape but I have to gather all data I can. And it's not the right time to raise this issues around here. I'll have to wait a while.
I believe that your experience and the way you write can help lots of people.
As you all must have notice I've open a blog. :o)
The last sentence must be read as a whisper.
I don't know why I forgot what I have to say.
But at least I'll spare Phillip of having data that has nothing to do with the post.

Posted by Ana at June 11, 2008 05:17 PM

I'm still here!
One year tomorrow.
Thank you Philip.

Posted by: Ana at June 10, 2009 03:13 PM

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