The toxicology report speaks for itself, and anything else such as what the girl friend said, in my opinion is hearsay.

The report concluded and ends the SSRI link to this case in my opinion.

The link you put up had kind of an interesting "Freudian" slip saying he had traces of two cold medicines and called one of them a "benzodiazepine". That's not a cold medicine the last I heard -- maybe they meant Benadryl. Anyway I admit to being intrigued by the cold medicine aspect since this is not the first time that I have heard about things going seriously south when someone added a cold med to a psych drug cocktail or on top of psych drug withdrawal. I wonder if any readers can offer anything substantive on this topic. Are there any warnings on antidepressants or benzos about mixing them with cold meds or antihistamines?

Stephany, I beg to disagree with you that this report puts the quash on any link to an antidepressant. Just because Prozac was out of the bloodstream does not mean anything as far as withdrawal effects. The brain takes far longer to recover than blood levels might suggest. Withdrawal effects go on for weeks, if not months, after a medication is out of the bloodstream. This is the argument that big pharma uses -- if it's not in the bloodstream it must not have had any effect. If it was just a question of getting it out of the blood stream psych drug withdrawal would be far easier than it obviously is for those going through it. Far too simplistic. And post mortem toxicology analyses are notoriously inadequate as far as explaining the insidious effects of antidepressants and even accurate prescription drug blood levels as it turns out. I'm sorry hammering away at the profound behavior altering effects of these drugs seems to have antagonized you. This tox analysis is almost meaningless as far as what was affecting Steven Kazmierczak in the days and weeks before his rampage and death and does not rule out profound drug effects at all.

Had he taken the antidepressants he might not have shot at all.

Sorry if my post seems crabby as I had insomnia.

Stephany, after all you have been through with your daughter, why are you falling for the pharma line about these drugs? Sara is 100% right.

That's why the Paxil Progress Boards which is run by a registered nurse, advises people to taper 10% of the current dose every 3 to 6 weeks. These drugs make numerous chemical changes in the body as it isn't an issue of simply reducing the blood level.

Dr. Shock, do you believe that these drugs can cause someone who never has a history of homocidal behavior to be come homical? If you don't, then there is isn't even a point to having this discussion.

As an FYI, the RN who runs Paxil Progress Boards Laurie Yorke, witnessed her son's homicical/suicidal reactions to Paxil thanks to an MD tapering schedule that was way too fast. Laurie feels very lucky her family and son didn't end up like the Illinois shooter and his victims. Now that he is off Paxil, he is fine but does have lingering physical symptoms.

So what do you say to Laurie, Dr. Shock?

By the way, she has a great line, the people who are using psych meds are the long term studies but no one is collecting the data. So Dr, Shock, why you do something to change this so we can prevent future shootings?

AA

The discontinuation syndrome from meds such as Effexor and Paxil may have an effect on some people long after the drug is cleared from the blood stream. Stopping these meds cold is just asking for trouble.

"Had he taken the antidepressants he might not have shot at all."

No -- there are other ways of looking at this. Number one, if he had NEVER taken the antidepressants he might not have shot at all. There was no evidence that he was a potential murderer or had ever engaged in violent behavior BEFORE treatment. Number two, if he had been educated and knowledgeable about antidepressant withdrawal he might not have stopped cold turkey and might not have shot at all. To view this case as evidence that continued treatment would have avoided shooting is putting yourself in the E. Fuller Torrey camp for forced medication. I think the evidence that forced medication leads to more violence rather than less is pretty compelling, in part because of the changes that occur while under treatment compounded with the enormous risks of stopping treatment in any but the most highly controlled manner. The lesson from these cases in my view is that we need to be a lot more cautious in how we prescribe medication and we need to be more conscientious about how we educate both professionals and patients about risks of both starting in the first place and of stopping.

The FDA general warning for SSRIs & SNRIs, issued on March 22, 2004, stated that discontinuation should not be abrupt but should be a 'gradual tapering'.

I do think if the girlfriend lied about the UNI shooter abruptly stopping the Prozac, that this would have been discovered by the media and brought to the attention of all readers in the country. The media has much to gain from the SSRIs & SNRIs being benign: 1. Their advertising revenue is not in jeopardy 2. Their journalists, who tend to take SSRIs & SNRIs more than the general population, could relax and 3. All of their early reports about the miracle of Prozac would be confirmed. Therefore, I don't think the girlfriend made-up this story about the abrupt Prozac discontinuation.

www.SSRIstories.com has close to 2,200 cases of tragedies that happened while on or while discontinuing these drugs. Even if this proves nothing, it at least shows that the SSRIs & SNRIs did nothing to help the situation. People in these stories were no less depressed or even made calmer by the drugs.

According to the reports I have read this was only a "partial autopsy results released Friday by the university."

sara, "hammering away at the profound behavior altering effects of these drugs seems to have antagonized you."

Not in the least.

AA, "Stephany, after all you have been through with your daughter, why are you falling for the pharma line about these drugs? Sara is 100% right."

Excuse me, I never said I was falling for pharma, and I take offense at you using my daughter for a comment to defend your views.

I made a simple comment up at the very top directed at not one person here.

I merely was stating what I did. In my opinion once the toxicology report comes in, the SSRI violence theory/connection will not hold up in court. Maybe I needed to be more specific.

Just as I cannot prove Zyprexa agitated my daughter the same way Zoloft did.

Hi Dr. Shock,

It seems you’re ruffling a few feathers.

How’s also about the fact that the news media inundates the public with their sensationalistic news reporting to fill space and/or air time every day with murders, homicide bombings, atrocities and the like and I’d venture to say that most all these perpetrators aren’t users of psychotropic medications and they probably far outnumber those that do.

Maybe it’s the air we breathe?

Then again, I have a theory these are copycat murders.

Hmmm…and I wonder what about all those folks using psychotropic medications that don’t kill anyone?

Poor Elliot Spitzer…maybe there in lays the answer to these murders…an extreme sense of superiority and arrogance gone awry? How’s that for disturbed a psychology basis.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Stephany,

I apologize. It was unfair of me to use your daughter in my argument.

But don't be so sure that the SSRI/violence theory wouldn't hold up in court. Thanks to my memory impairments from these "wonderful" drugs, I can't recall the specific cases but I do vaguely remember that this defense was successful in some situations.

I am just very frustrated that while press coverage was better with this story than in similar situations on the past, they keep omitting relevant facts about how SSRIS work.

Again, my apologies.

AA

Herb,

Do you believe that there is any situation where SSRIS can cause a homicidal reaction?

Thanks

AA

AA, Thank you.

Hi to you AA,

In response to your question to me, “Do you believe that there is any situation where SSRIS can cause a homicidal reaction?” I would have to opine there are instances as there has been anecdotal reporting of these instances as well as the same for suicide.

Then again as I’ve pointed out, there are many individuals taking these very same drugs without similar reactions as is my spouse for some four decades. She hasn’t had any thoughts of homicide but then again she’s attempted suicide but I wouldn’t attribute that to her medication or treatment regimen.

I would attribute her suicide attempts to a rapid downward cycling in her mood state not precipitated by any situational or environmental event and/or any medication or regimen change.

Personally I strongly believe in the theory of genetic predisposition and the bio-neurochemical malfunctioning of my spouse’s brain as evidenced by her case history.

The fact is each individual is unique and as I’ve learned, so too is one’s response to medications, treatments, therapies and surgery. I won’t dismiss the potential of any of these items to cause in some individuals extreme side-effects but not all individuals.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

For anyone who has memory impairment about violence or suicide cases being "won" in a courtroom in regard to the SSRIs, I refer you to the Index of SSRI Stories: Go to: www.ssristories.com/index.php Then scroll down past the 29 school shootings and there you will find a list of 17 cases where a court or a judge ruled that the SSRI caused the violence or suicide. The 17 cases are all in a row and the full media article can be read by clicking on the extreme left of the page [underneath where it says "What"].

I had an extended conversation with Karen Barth Menzies, formerly of Baum Hedlund, after Cho shot 32 people at Virginia Tech. She said there are DIFFERENT LEVELS of toxicology techniques, some that would not show SSRI in the shooter. We have no idea what kind of toxicology study was done on this young man.