I see mental illnesses as existing on a spectrum from mild/everyone experiencing some varietal of it, to debilitating. I think this is where the Icarus Project's ideas about "dangerous gifts" is valid; we need to cultivate some of these feelings to be whole human beings. I think we are missing the very real utility of pain and angst; it protects us.

Anxiety is a reaction to situations that are often dangerous, and it is protective in nature. Depression can be healing and helps us cultivate empathy. How can we understand the suffering of others if we don't allow ourselves to suffer? Anger helps assure we assert ourselves and our rights. It helps us take care of ourselves. And why isn't it "ok" to be just a little weird and fucked up?

I love Levine's way of explaining why characterizing depression as a biological disease is just as harmful as characterizing it as a character flaw. It's not that depression isn't real, it's just that it's a response to the environement, and the cure doesn't lie in a pill bottle for the long run. Sure people get depressed for "no reason," but there is always a reason whether it's lack of energy from a physical problem or a pathological way of viewing the world (dangerous and subjective to declare someone else's view of the world pathological which is why any therapy must be voluntary), or a tragedy either current or in the past.

To say depression is not "all in your head," i.e. a genetic brain defect, is not to devalue the experience or its seriousness.

What is so bad about labelling depression as a weakness?

Shorn of its negative and pejorative connotations admitting you have a "weakness" can be empowering, at the very least it is honest. We don't criticise those with osteporosis because they have "weak" bones and cancer may in some cases be due to a "weak" immune system.

Having suffered myself with bouts of depression I recognize that there is a strong cognitive element to this condition and a fair amount of learnt behaviour too. I also recognize the role that anti depressant medication has played in my own recovery. (They work for me however they work). I also accept that I am not able to cope well with prolonged periods of extreme stress, (extreme for me that is), it makes me ill. Too this extent I would say that I have a "weak" psyche.

Not morally weak but not as robust as some of my peers. I am perhaps, unable to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune as well as some. This does not make me a bad person but it does not make me ill either, it makes me me.

Describing mental illness as an illness implies a level of understanding we do not have and offers the hope of a cure we are unable to give. Where is the germ, virus or infectous vector usually associated with a biological ilness? Why can you not catch depression like you can the flue?

Perhaps I have an "emotional disability" of some description that leaves my neurones hooked up somehow not as they should be. Whatever its called my reason occasionally deserts me, leaving me unable to function and requiring help. This is not to deny the fact of mental distress but is due to an ilness or a disability?

Why does depression have to be different than grief, heartache, rage or any other unpleasant emotional state? The whole notion of psychiatric "diseases" is flawed.

And PTSD? A very reasonable reaction to horrific circumstances. That's not a disease. It's more a reaction to society's diseases: war, assault, poverty. Dr. Shock is an idiot.

The numerous advantages to psychiatrists in medicalizing human emotions are obvious. The tragedy, from the patient's point of view, is that choice and responsibility are stripped away. It's absolutely futile to teach people they're defective and unable to cope.

I like E's categorization of depression as an "emotional disability". I have bipolar NOS, which basically means my emotional responses don't necessarily correlate to my environment, and there are a variety of emotional "phases" my mind moves through, sometimes arbitrarily. To top it off, my symptoms are not textbook, and therefore I can't be neatly pigeon-holed into a DSMV diagnosis by psychiatrists.

I like the fact that my mind defies labels, because I see labels as limiting and disabling. If you think of yourself as "mentally ill", that's bound to have a negative impact on your self-image in the long-term. I've accepted that my mind's wiring is atypical compared to the average person's, and this doesn't make me "sick" or defective, though it does mean I'm less emotionally resilient than the average person, I'm more sensitive to things like criticism and rejection. I score much higher than average on empathy tests, my emotional responses are far more acute, and this isn't always a bad thing.

It is true that I'll probably always be medication-dependent, otherwise I wouldn't be able to survive in a world of neurally normative people.

following his line of reasoning all other psychiatric diseases would also be a painful reaction. PTSD? Sorry but that are the consequences when you go to war, shit happens.

this is so deeply disturbing. shit happens? well, bullshit happens too, apparently. what is this man trying to say? is he denying ptsd? is he saying our childern sent to war gotta buck up? violence pain fear, i pray,is not our destiny ourlegacy.
i think trauma is responsible for a majority of "mental illness". never met anyone in treatment without a horrific past. and mental illness itself creates trauma. try living with voices screaming obsenities at you all day. i don't know what more to say. but more needs to be said.

When I clicked on "Comments," I thought I had something interesting to say on this subject, but I find that I can't find a form of words that can capture what it is that I want to say.

Depression exists, because people say it exists. That is to say: people experience something that resembles a definition that they've been given, which they then call depression. It certainly is "all in the mind," but where the hell else would it be??!!

I have many theories as to what depression actually is, each as pointless as the last and the next, when considered in abstract. I tell you what, Imagine this scenario: you give a person an insoluble problem (at least, one is pretty damn sure that it's insoluble), and then you tell them that they must find a solution. More to the point, this problem should affect the subject closely.

So, if you have scratched your arse, or picked your nose, while you were reading this, I might suggest something nonsensical to the effect that this was socially unacceptable, not to mention unhygienic, and assume an air of restrained disgust, as some people do. I then make a very persuasive argument that supports this claim. You make the mistake of entertaining this arrant gibberish, and start to get down on yourself, thinking yourself somehow unsophisticated, or something...

The ball has been set rollinig. Children get caned with this shit, from day one. I'm not sure that that makes any sense, but still. What I'm trying to say is that mental illness, to the extent that it exists, is a matter of people trying to assimilate all the nonsense that they get told, down the years. In that sense, depression is very real. However, when one realizes that most of what one is told is "true," is actually based on what others have said, and not on anything real and observable, then that frees up a lot of processing space! At the same time, it permits behaviours that never should have been forbidden in the first place (like scratching your arse, or picking your nose!).

Just to be clear: none of the above is true, but is merely my speculation, based on what I've observed - an attempt to build a generic model that fits all the facts, as perceived.

Matt

We are plastered with constant images from the media and "experts" opinions on who and what we should be; well, frankly, I did not fit the exact mold, and being young and vulnerable, I spent (wasted) so much of my life fighting labels than I care to admitt. This life long experience has effected almost every area of my life as I try stay away from the the doctor's couch--I really don't believe that I need any other human being to tell me what catagory I may or may not fit into--I know who I am in Christ. I did NOT say this is easy; however, especially as a child,for me, the label really did leave a much, much deeper mark on me than just the problem itself would have.So, parents, be so careful about running to get the expert's opinion because children really do grow out of their akward stages--just make sure you are providing a safe, and healthy enviorment along with clear direction; using your community resources to keep your children involved in the community and school activities.

Michelle

With the recent disturbing events that Phillip has cited as it relates to his forum and elsewhere and the malicious postings attacking individuals I was drawn to one particular statement in this topic.

“Dr. Shock is an idiot.” --- Francesca Allan

It appears to me that Francesca in her normal dogmatic opposition to anyone not agreeing with her thoughts and/or the DSM and psychiatric diagnosis of patient symptoms freely expresses what I consider another of her inappropriate remarks and her own labeling of others.

Unlike you Francesca, I do have respect for the fact that individuals like Dr. Peter Breggin have achieved a level of education and licensing as a physician and while I do not necessarily agree with many of his positions I don’t think of him or other mental health care practitioners as “an idiot.” Then again, what I may think of some of the postings, thoughts and personal attacks expressed here are better kept in private.

To the contrary, I find Dr. Shock nothing to which you’ve stated as he is extremely interesting and most importantly based upon his writings caring for his patients and a willingness to keep an open mind. Added to which his photography has also impressed me.

I on the other hand believe amongst other issues abuse, stress, trauma etc are not diseases but potentiates to the long-term damage effected upon a major organ; the brain which then becomes a disease, illness and/or disorder.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

"To the contrary, I find Dr. Shock nothing to which you’ve stated as he is extremely interesting and most importantly based upon his writings caring for his patients and a willingness to keep an open mind."

I must second this compassionate, well-thought out opinion. Herb is clearly one of the few impartial, rational readers that posts here- a true voice of reason in the midst of madness. Bravo Herb! You're a man for the ages.

Dr. Shock might be a swell guy and truly caring about his patients. However, the logic of his reaction to Dr. Levine is, frankly, laughable. There is no connection whatsoever between something being a "natural reaction" and treating it as just a case of "shit happens." Anaphylactic shock is a natural reaction, in a person with an allergy, to being stung by a bee. A broken bone is a natural reaction to being hit with a baseball bat. Does Dr. Shock suggest that Levine's prescription for an allergic reaction is to watch the person suffocate, or for a broken bone to let it turn septic and kill the victim? Unlikely--but that is exactly his implication in putting the "shit happens" words into Levine's mouth regarding PTSD. Actually, PTSD does indeed seem to be a natural reaction to horribly stressful situations. The REAL question is, what should be done given the fact of the reaction? Should the person suffering from PTSD be told to suck it up? Should they be told they are "weak" and ought to "take it like a man"? Should they be told their brain's neural pathways are abnormal and defective? Should they be told to take drugs of questionable effectiveness and with uncertain side-effects? Should they receive talk therapy? Should that talk therapy be from a person who is sympathetic to the fact that the PTSD (or depression, or anxiety, or etc.) reaction is understandable in light of the horror the person has endured? That the therapy can then proceed in an effort to assist the person to overcome the emotionally disabling features of their natural reaction? And so on. Clearly, treating psychological conditions like depression and PTSD as natural reactions has no bearing on whether they are dealt with seriously. You can think of the conditions as natural reactions and also provide serious therapeutic support or not; you can think of the conditions as abnormal disease reactions and provide serious therapeutic support or not. Asserting otherwise is fallacious and inflammatory.

Depression does exist....... and your absolutely right..... everybody gets depress at times but for some its just for the moment and others its a life time thing..... I personally think a man made drug can't help depression..... that's just what I think from experience and honestly I think people that have not had an horrific past cannot not relate to or understand a person that has delt with a traumatizing lifestyle..... people say they understand but they don't..... they don't understand the sick thoughts we have going through our heads.... they don't understand the pain that we feel and delt with.... they don't understand how hard it is to forget about your pass.... its not that easy to let go..... cause you sit back and wonder why did this happen to me???........ we are labeled as animals.... we are labeled to be crazy..... but we are the victims..... the animals are the people who you think are normal...... there the ones that abused us..... there the ones that raped us...... there the ones that killed us....... there the ones that didn't care for us..... there the ones that treated us like we where worth nothing...... there the sick ones...... bottom line there the ones that made us who we are..... there the ones that made us haved suicide thoughts.... there the ones that make us afflict pain against ourselves..... we have good inside us..... but we are so in the zone that we rarely show it...... and it makes me sick that people try to put a label on us like they know what we suffered..... yall could keep on with yall opinions..... but yall don't know SHIT unless you've been through what me and many others have suffered and yall would never understand...... can't no drug help us..... can't nobody help us..... the only one figure that can help us is GOD cause he the only one that can see what we deal with and have delt with...... so I say fuck you all who try to put a label on us.... cause you don't know shit..... you just think you know..... BLESS!!!!!!