I'ld say all these male shooters have too much testosterone , and anger . How and why (killers)some humans can not think/imagine/hope of a better day, some time in the future, I don't know. Do the drugs stop hope?

Remember, too, that the second most deadly school shooting in the U.S. [Red Lake, MN - 10 dead, 8 injured] involved Prozac. In fact, the perpetrator had just had his dose of Prozac doubled the week before the rampage.

Also, two of the school shootings were committed by females: one in Warrensport, Pa [Paxil] and the other in Winnetka, IL [antidepressant Anfranil].

In fact, that rare oddity known as a female serial killer was on Paxil the whole time while she committed her string of murders. This is stated in the book written about the case: "To Die For" Go to www.ssristories.com to view these tragic stories.

A young, blonde, beautiful, well-to-do mom and wife recently went through her home in the middle of the night and shot to death her husband, daughter [age 11], son [age 7] and herself. She was on Zoloft. It was reported in the Dallas Morning News and the Zoloft was mentioned. She had no other drugs, legal or illegal, in her system. Her family does not even have access to her suicide note. The Attorney General of the State of Texas sealed it plus all other evidence.This was announced on the news networks in Dallas, Texas. Pfizer acts quickly. This tragic case was recently added to www.ssristories.com

It is all about $$$$ for the pharmaceutical companies. Since tobbaco can no longer be advertised in the media and prescription drugs can be advertised, then the media has to be careful what it prints. Freedom of the Press?

Rosie

Wouldn't there be more to it than just medications? Too much testosterone, anger, or retaliation make it seem like it's so black and white. Seems there would be more of a mental or temperament link. The research I've done on the Columbine shooters was that they were beyond hope. From what I've read Pekka-Eric Auvinen seems like his sadistic superiority deal was similar to that of Eric Harris.

good point jaron, but i think for me the thing is that the finnish press was willing to at least ask the question while the us/brit press wanted to censor the point without evidence in either direction. pretty much the limit to my point. either way, there are enough ssri-linked murder/violence cases to where this question is going to remain with us for a long time. my own view is that anyone first taking an ssri/snri or under going a dose change has got to be watched like a hawk and if ppl are complaining of aggression and agitation while on an ssri/snri, then docs and friends should take their complaints seriously.

Luvox was removed from the market after Columbine, in April 1999. By August 1999, it was back. Just in time for my daughter "having intrusive thoughts" on anti depressant Imipramine for bed wetting at age 11--to be dx OCD and given Luvox. Never in her young life, before Luvox, did she rage and become violent.The psychiatrist who I blindly trusted changed the med to Zoloft. For no apparent reason. Accutane for acne. Prozac. We are not in the dark ages here.

We are being held captive by Pharmaceutical companies.

They[in my opinion] are the "danger to self or others".

Um, these are probably cases of bipolar disorder misdiagnosed as Major Depression. Contrary to what many doctors think, antidepressants aren't "easy" drugs to administer, and should be given in cases where Major Depression can be diagnosed with a certain degree.

Just don't go on a moral panic against "consumer" pharmaceutical psychiatry. SSRIs are a very effective drug that essentially cures (i.e. repairs brain damage) a specific and quite common condition known as Major Depression.

There are a few other conditions that do look like depression but aren't really, and SSRIs (or tricyclics, like imprimamine/Anfranil) will either not help or induce manic flip-outs -- with an explosion in reckless behaviour, optimism and aggrssion (in case of a bipolar disorder with a strong depressive component -- which is what drives people to the doctor in first place).

I'm seeing more and more psychiatrists recommending an anticonvulsant (i.e. mood stabilizer for bipolar disorders) with an antidepressant edge (like lamotrigine) as first-aid medication to patients who turn up badly "depressed" but can't be ascertained to have Major Depression.

Another thing that's increasingly becoming common practice is augmenting antidepressant treatment with anxiolytics. A big part of depression is about a lack of energy to deal with the world, and as soon as you start finding the heart do to anything, there's a risk that you'll attempt suicide (a common black box warning in SSRIs nowadays) or -- once again, in case of bipolar disorder misdiagnosed as major depression -- go out on a wild, reckless rampage.

In any case, don't blame "pharmaceutical companies" for the fuck-ups of a few small-town doctors. New generation psychiatric medications help millions worldwide lead a normal life. Try to refrain from the hysterics. Remember how ridiculous, in retrospect, the previous moral panics following school massacres were -- I mean, Jesus, Wolfenstein 3D leads kids to kill? Marilyn Manson? Trenchcoats?

Syntaxfree said: "SSRIs are a very effective drug that essentially cures (i.e. repairs brain damage) a specific and quite common condition known as Major Depression."

You forgot to mention that they also often cause mania and thus translate a big problem (depression) into an even bigger one (bipolar disorder).

SSRIs are indeed very effective -- they're a gateway drug to a lifetime of psych meds. There is no indication of depression being "brain damage" and lots of evidence that SSRIs mostly act via placebo effect. Despite the marketing hype, SSRIs are just a subset of the older tricyclics. Their minor side effects are less troublesome but their major ones tend to be horrific.

Thanks for the advice but, if it's all the same to you, I will continue to blame Big Pharma and the pseudo-scientific field they have created: biopsychiatry.

It seems as though the only real objective diagnostic criterion there is for bipolar is the presence of mania induced by taking an antidepressant. If it weren't for bipolars, the pharma industry would have a relatively clear field for the distribution of their antidepressants. So instead of admitting that their products backfire for certain people, and accepting the corresponding liability, they label those with bad reactions (induced by their own drug) as having a lifelong stigmatizing disease, which itself requires its own package of special drug/poisons to deal with. Nice racket, that.

I have to say that there really is some genuine bipolar out there. It is all over my family, predisposed by genetics to getting it. Both my children got it at age 20, and it was not triggered by SSRIs as mine was at age 55. However, SSRIs and atypicals screwed my children - my son was killed by Zyprexa, and my daughter, terrified, tried not to be bipolar. She was given two SSRIs by an idiotic doctor and there went the farm - we are still working on the results of that after three years.

BTW, I am still wondering about CHO and the Virginia Tech massacre. Though he had pre-existing problems when he went to VA Tech, and the toxicology report was "clean", there are all kinds of toxicology reports - I wonder if he had a thorough one....and I wonder whether someone conveniently swooped into his room and made a bottle of pills disappear.

This is true, Susan. Mania caused by SSRIs is characterized as the uncovering of latent bipolar disorder. It's the same old story: if it's good news, praise the drugs; if it's bad news, blame the patient.

Imagine a pain reliever causing heart failure. (Okay, you don't really have to "imagine" it.) What if Big Pharma had taken the position that their analgesic uncovered these patients' latent myocardial infarctions? Do you think that explanation would really fly?

Syntax free: "SSRIs are a very effective drug that essentially cures (i.e. repairs brain damage) a specific and quite common condition known as Major Depression."

Uh, not really. I've posted recently on this topic many researchers have likewise noted that there is no evidence that SSRI's "repair brain damage." The idea that depression is a "specific" condition would perhaps indicate that it has little overlap with other conditions, which is far from true.

Heh. Can you believe I just realized this is an entire blog about psychiatry?

But, hmm, carrying with the discussion:

> Uh, not really. I've posted recently on this topic many researchers have likewise noted that there is no evidence that SSRI's "repair brain damage."

Well, I'm not really knowledgeable in that literature, but from interacting with consumer-psychiatry patients for years (and being one myself), I was under the impression that the current pop story was that depression was an atrophic factor that killed neurons in a certain area and the serotonin overdose gradually got them back to shape.

As for my original claim,

>> SSRIs are a very effective drug that essentially cures (i.e. repairs brain damage) a specific and quite common condition known as Major Depression.

I think it's pretty much established that most people that undergo SSRI treatment leave it at some point, essentially "fixed". It's not like a benzodiazepine, which is (woe is me) hard to get rid of.

> This is true, Susan. Mania caused by SSRIs is characterized as the uncovering of latent bipolar disorder. It's the same old story: if it's good news, praise the drugs; if it's bad news, blame the patient.

Rather, blame the doctor who misdiagnosed major depression. And sue. Sue me too for posting sentences about psychiatry while not being an actual psychiatrist, too ;)

Again, this isn't Big Pharma, it's Crappy Doctors. -- and it's been so since the bad old days of all kind of crazies being thrown into a nuthouse.

> The idea that depression is a "specific" condition would perhaps indicate that it has little overlap with other conditions, which is far from true.

Hepatitis is a "specific" condition and it might overlap and even correlate with, say, kidney failure.

As for "depression", it's an open word, with a loose colloquial meaning, a more precise use as a symptom and as in the name of a few psychiatric conditions like Major Depression or Atypical Depression.

Major Depression has little overlap with what could be termed Bipolar Depression -- bp2 with very sparse, very light hypomanic episodes. OTOH, it may correlate with a bunch of organic dysfunctions of all sorts. You could be depressed from Crohn's disease.

OTOH, I responding to someone (CL Psych, not Furious Seasons) who has an entire blog dedicated to data mining news and the literature to poo-pooh biopsychiatry. Probably another clinical psychologist who resents the ascent of consumer biopsychiatry in the last two decades.

Sometimes your field just becomes outdated. Ask the freudians how they feel about modern psychotherapies.

(Hey, mr. Moderator -- if this is stepping out of line, feel free to delete it independently of your judgement of the previous post. I'm risking a snarkier tone precisely because I know this is being pre-moderated.)

I'm still here :P

> It seems as though the only real objective diagnostic criterion there is for bipolar is the presence of mania induced by taking an antidepressant.

I followed the blogroll to The Last Pychiatrist, and there's a good comment there responding to that:

> A clinical exam that shows thought disorder (racing thoughts and loosening of associations), psychomotor agitation, rapid uninterruptible speech and euphoria and impulsivity that is disconnected from reality all in the context of a lack of insight is a pretty darn reliable and meaningful physical exam finding of a syndrome.

And that's precisely how I was diagnosed. I decided to seek psychiatric help after the general feeling-bad started to be a strong impediment to living the life I used to live. The very first thing I said was "I can't organize my life anymore", but I was pretty much diagnosed from the criteria above.

My recurring theme is, blame the freaking doctors. Pharma companies just make the pills -- whose sale should not even be regulated. Heck, how long has it been since the Prozac-suicidality scare? 15 years? It's pretty much common knowledge not only among doctors but in the general population that antidepressants can have weird effects if what you have isn't really Major Depression.

hey syntaxfree, my comments policy is explained on this site's about page. you can be pretty loose in what you say, but i don't stand for people making fun of other peoples' psychology etc. you're fine so far. differences of opinion are welcome.

re:Syntaxfree"You could be depressed from Crohn's disease." There is a real lab test for Crohn's disease. There is no lab test for any mental illness.

Syntaxfree,

I don't plan on doing a lot of comment battles with you or anyone else, but here goes.

"Sometimes your field just becomes outdated. Ask the freudians how they feel about modern psychotherapies." Go ahead and troll through the literature comparing psychotherapy outcomes to pharmacotherapy outcomes for depression and anxiety. Hint: You'll find that psychotherapy outcomes are better in the long-term. I'm not claiming that psychotherapy outcomes are wonderful, on average, because they're not. But they are generally at least equivalent to pharmacotherapy outcomes in the short-term and superior in the long-term.

"I think it's pretty much established that most people that undergo SSRI treatment leave it at some point, essentially "fixed". It's not like a benzodiazepine, which is (woe is me) hard to get rid of."

That's a negative. You are saying that most people who take SSRI's end up "fixed," which is incorrect -- and (I think) implying that SSRI's are easy to discontinue, which they are often not.

You may have another comment to throw back my direction. I will likely not respond, due to a lack of time. Don't take it personally. While I appreciate that you are willing to share your opinion, I think that you have a poor understanding of what clinical trial data have shown. I don't have time to go through and provide citations, but you can feel free to look through Furious Seasons, my blog, or PubMed to track down the goods.

"small town doctors".

In my daughter's "case"-35 years of experience, published in peer reviewed journals at a prominent hospital in a large city doc is not "small town".

Most doctors are educated via Pharma reps and CME courses. There's another story.

You could be depressed from Crohn's Disease as Syntaxfree explains, in fact few people who have Crohn's Disease are happy about it but to diagnose that understandable depression as a mental illness, a medical disease, would be an error and would likely exacerbate the crohn's disease as ssri's have digestive side effects in some people. Treat the underlying medical condition and mood should improve, unless of course the person suffering from Crohn's discovers, while seeking treatment for Crohn's, how broken and unfair the medical system is and becames clinically depressed. Again this isn't a mental illness, our system really is screwed up.

But then there are people who have digestive troubles, i.e. Crohn's like symptoms, from stress and depression, again, therapy would likely help these people though sometimes in the short run ssri's might help but the problem is the long term damage to the system from the short term use of ssri's,

One thing I find tiring and rather arrogant is this idea that if you managed to deal with major depression without meds, then you really weren't clinically depressed after all. I call bullshit. Not everyone finds relief through medication and psych hospitalizations, but that doesn't mean they weren't in serious distress. If meds work for you, then great keep on taking them. They didn't work for me. That doesn't mean I wasn't clinically depressed or that I was misdiagnosed.

Also, if a person is deprived of sleep long enough and given a buttload of stimulants, then they're going to act a little crazy. That is exactly what happened to me. I was given a cocktail of stiumlants that kept me from sleeping and I went from being very depressed to doing cartwheels outside of the psych ward. I have never done crap like that prior to receiving my wonder drugs nor since I've quit taking them. That doesn't mean I'm really bipolar. That means I was sleep deprived and way over stimulated which brought me really close to psychosis.

Sorry, for the tangent I went off on. Syntax got my feathers a little ruffled.

SyntaxFree mentioned (paraphrasing here) that people who are depressed don't have the energy to do anything but once they start taking the antidepressant some suddenly have the heart to kill themselves. I have never understood this line of thinking, yet I know that's what they teach in psychology classes (I remember hearing it myself). It seems to me that if a person was truly feeling so much better from the antidepressant that they wouldn't kill themselves. That's not my idea of feeling better. Where did this idea come from, anyway?

BOTH the Columbine shooters were on SSRIs.
While Eric Harris was on Luvox (he'd previously been on Zoloft), Dylan Klebold was on Zoloft and Paxil.

The video made by the Finnish school shooter mentions quite a number of SSRIs.

http://www.iltalehti.fi/nettitv/?27937184

Summary in case it becomes unavailable:

Jokelan surmaajan nettivideo masennus laakkeista [with all the aa's in the last word dotted above].

Some sinister music starts and the words

"Are you depressed?"

Then

"Do you feel Sad, Frustrated, or Angry?"

Then

"Have you had Suicidal or Homicidal Thoughts?"

Then

"If the answer is yes - don't worry. There is something that might make you happy..."

Then the sinister music is replaced with 'victory' music (famous classical, can't remember the name of it) and a photo of a packet and a sheet of CIPRALEX is shown.

Then a photo of some loose PROZAC is shown.

Then a photo of a packet and a sheet of LUVOX is shown.

Then a photo of an open bottle on its side with WHITE PILLS scattered is shown.

Then a photo of two tubs of ZOLOFT is shown with two tablets in front of each, blue and pale green.

Then it reverts back to more sinister music and the words:

"Or then not."

Then a photo of Eric Harris and Dylan Lebold standing in a Columbine classroom holding guns.

Then a photo of Cho Seung-Hui , Virginia Tech, with a gun in each hand.

Then the 'victory' style music restarts to the words

"SSRI Medication."

which stays until fading out at the end of the video.

Lisa, it's also hard to understand how someone would need to take an SSRI in order to summon the energy to take an overdose of SSRIs. I've been dangerously suicidal before. It doesn't take much energy to contemplate and attempt ending your life. I think this is just another way to blame the patient rather than the drugs, if you ask me.

I was doing some research on the works of the great Prof Marty Keller, for Bob Fiddaman, recently. He's utterly clueless about what causes depression, in case you hadn't realized (Keller, that is, not Bob). At least, if he wasn't clueless, he'd have twigged that the very fact (as observed by him in one of the papers that I read) that psychotherapy in conjunction with drugs, works better than drugs alone, suggests that something is going on, which cannot be explained by chemists, nor neurologists. To the extent that he cares, of course.

There's a reason that NLP works, although it's not in the interests of anybody in the Worshipful Company to discover what that reason is. I think I do know, but then nobody's asking me, so I shall remain:

Yours

An evil machine and twister of words (TM my wife)

Jeffrey LaCasse and Jonathan Leo did some great research investigating, in part, how the myth that psychotropic drugs "correct brain chemical imbalance" gets perpetuated.

It seems that journalists touting the wonders of psychotropes essentially cross reference each other on this point, but when confronted by LaCasse and Leo, not one could come up with a peer reviewed study which proved the brain chemical imbalance correction theory. LaCasse and Leo also confronted every mental health professional they came accross who had alluded to this theory with the same results- not one could provide citations to any study which definitively proved the existance of such an effect.

In the end, the theory seems to have been derived from pharmaceutical company ads alone and extrapolated from research which did not support the claim.
http://tinyurl.com/243vaj

This Syntax guy is a moron!

It's true that a hallmark of depression is a lack of decisive ability and lack of energy. Taking anti-depressants is most dangerous when you BEGIN the meds and you start to feel better. You then have more energy to act on impulses but you do not yet feel relief of depression. Also, some people may be misdiagnosed and really have bi-polar in which case the meds make them manic.

"You then have more energy to act on impulses but you do not yet feel relief of depression."

No, no, no, no, no!
The violent and suicidal behavior connected with SSRIs has nothing to do with depression.
I cannot believe that there are still people making these kind of statement.
"-I'm so happy with this antidepressant! I'm depressed and now with the SSRIs I have lots of energy. I'll go to kill some friends at high school before suicide."
So it should not be called "antidepressant"!
It should be called "energizer".
What a good wonderful drug! You keep on depressed and have energy to harm yourself and others!
LOL

Mat Holford said -

"I was doing some research on the works of the great Prof Marty Keller, for Bob Fiddaman, recently. He's utterly clueless about what causes depression, in case you hadn't realized (Keller, that is, not Bob). "

So tell us Matt, seing how you rate yourself in comparison with Prof Keller, tells Matt WHAT CAUSES depression ??

Sara XXX

If you know what causes it, how would you treat it.?

Depression is caused by trauma in life, unhappy events. A person labeled as depressed is no different from you, whoever you are reading this post, when you are terribly unhappy. SSRI's take away anxiety and fear in some, produce them in others, but no pill can change your actual living situation, no pill can put money in your bank account, make your spouse love you again. So yes, you keep on being depressed and have the energy to harm yourself and others and lack the judgment to prevent you from doing it. Wow!

Philip,

I really cannot stand any longer this person who uses the name Sara!
I will not write another single word while this person makes all this circus.
I know I don't count too much but that's my protest.
Enough for me seeing this threats to Mat and Bob.
Enough!
I have so stomach for that!