It's odd that having someone labeled mentally ill is considered a caring thing to do whether the person is an adult or a child. I think the doctor is right about blaming parenting but I don't think the parents realize they are wrong for parenting the way they do. It's going to take some loud shouting and strong words to save the kids from these mind numbing drugs. Parents are being taught that if a child doesn't behave like a really cute, docile child of their fantasies, the kid has a defective brain. It's not all their fault they buy this hookum but it's still horribly wrong and of course there are the parents who aren't just ignorant but consciously abusive.

There are complex social and economic forces at work here and yet it all reminds me of a really stupid movie I saw this week, Idiocracy. We're dumbing ourselves and our kids way down with these drugs. Wonder what's happening to the average IQ of American kids, I bet it's on the decline (not that iq scores are as reliable as their marketing as being, but still)

This phrink has courage. She's right on target.

She's trying to start a necessary conversation by bringing nurture into the debate but is blinded by class privilege. Looks an inch outside her cozy bubble, and sees only careering parents and spoiled children in need of structural discipline and that's as dark as it gets for her.

The fact is kids on Medicaid are the real cash cow, and represent the major uptick for anti-psychotic use. Foster kids are drugged as a matter of course. This is a victim population, which is why they're in foster care.

Outside foster care schoolteachers are Pharma's facilitating agents of the one-in-four incested young. Teachers call the abusive parent and demand the kid see a shrink, and since bullies kowtow to greater authority without question they're off to the races with alacrity and great relief, as the the child's sole means of protest is chemically restrained.

In all cases we must assume the child's behavior is absolutely meaningless, so everybody's happy. This shrink wants to question parental abdication from within in her rich and reactionary bubble, fine, whatev, yay, have at it, but yes, it's totally lame.

It's social hysteria fueled by DTC advertising and mass marketing of psychiatric medications by Pharmaceutical companies,leaving doctors as well as consumers influenced via Pharma-written literature. If DTC was not on television, in magazines, in paperwork and CDs left for consumers in doctor's offices, and if pharma reps stopped taking samples to doctors--in other words---if parents and doctors alike were not influenced by a marketing scam--[including advertising in the Journals]--the child would stand a better chance at remaining medication free.

Yes, she is right, it certainly isnt a chemical imbalance, but her argument that children diagnosed with bipolar disorder are spoiled (? it seems implicit?) and simply not disciplined, is incomplete. It isnt that simple, and often there are more variables involved. Some of those may include over-parenting, abuse, neglect, etc. I was diagnosed with Pediatric Bipolar Disorder almost a decade ago by a doctor with a faculty appointment at Harvard Medical School. I was not spoiled, my parents divorced at a very young age, i struggled with my sexuality and a sibling physically abused me for many years. My mother had very little money. Did i act out? Yes. Did i need "more discipline"? Certainly not.

My personal story is the PERFECT, PROTOTYPICAL, example of how this diagnosis can destroy a child, how the experts are dead wrong, and how medication does not help. It is the PERFECT example. Everything every concerned critic has said about the possibility of bad outcomes ( and they often say this as if its only possible) has been realized in my awful experience with all this. On the face of it all, its funny, you wonder how, these people can be so naive. But its very scary to see how there is no capacity for self-regulation or criticism within child psychiatry. And as far as the experts are dead wrong, the psychiatrist who (mis)diagnosed me had a faculty appointment at harvard medical school, works at Biederman's clinic at MGH and has authored research alongside him... Thats a really scary thought...you just look at where all that has gotten me, and how much i have had to struggle to over come all that this has caused me (stigma, side effects, weight, self-confidence, social problems, relationships with others, friends, boyfriends, anxiety unrelated to anything before this, being medicated to the exclusion of seeing a therapist, and having to quit a sport i excelled in, and on and on and on)...and it just seems scary... even more children are being (mis)diagnosed with this??? That thought pains me... and, for what its worth, i was one of those bipolar children who was angry only at home, i got straight A's all through high school and my classmates and friends loved me. Bipolar disorder manifests itself only at home???? haha...very biological.

As you've said, the current paradigm is completely eliminating the role of environment in the development of any child, "healthy" or otherwise. I think eliminating the role of the environment is doing everyone a disservice.

I would never blame the parents entirely, but I have a counselor friend who is extremely well regarded in the community and has seen plenty of children. He has told me repeatedly that parents will drop their children off and say "fix my child" (in front of the child!). What on earth can a counselor possibly do in a situation like that to fix the problem "in the child"? I've long thought that mental illness in a child is a symptom of dysfunction in the family, and the dysfunction may not be on the part of the child, but the child may be manifesting it.

I would never blame parents entirely, but I dare you to find me a parent who when asked to discuss the quality of their marriage or state of divorce would either be willing to even go there OR have enough self-awareness to discuss the situation with insight. That would be way too close to be comfortable for most parents. Or, heaven forbid the counselor ask about what the child is eating, how the child is sleeping, or how the child is getting along with others.

To effectively treat any "symptoms" in a child the whole family must cooperate and be willing to admit dysfunction; unfortunately this is never the case.

By the way if you want to use my sidewalk art photos in any way (on here or otherwise) others might get a kick out of them.

I agree with the reporter's statement that diagnosing a kid as bipolar absolves his/her parents from the responsibility for their bad parenting. A case in point is a little known book called "A Bird Nest's Soup" by Hanna Grealy, published by Attic Press, Dublin, in 1987 (reprint of the 1971 edition with additional information). Ms. Grealy was bipolar and her mom, being highly narcissistic and single, placed her at the age of 19 (that was in 1944) in a mental institution (the "Big House") where she spent the next 20 years until the Irish laws were revised. Several years into her confinement, her mom had died and no relatives wished to take her in (their reputation was at stake), so she had to stay. The girl was gifted, but lost all her spunk from the confinement. Upon her release, she was compelled to leave Ireland by her relatives and went to London where she found work as a maid to a kindly elderly doctor. After the doctor's death, she worked odd jobs, eventually returning to Dublin, and died at the age of 62. The book makes it crystal clear that the primary fault why her life was wrecked through hospitalization was her mother (the girl also had a brother, but he never had been interested in her life). Nowadays. she'd have been placed on an atypical, and her life would have been wrecked at home, rather than in a mental institution. It's the same result, but at a lower cost. See the link below about Hanna.

http://www.archive.org/details/WellSaidProductionsRememberingHannaGreallyPart1

To be clear at the start - I do not believe that one can diagnose a child as having bipolar disorder at all. A child's mind is developing and has not reached a point of balance. Without balance how could one find an imbalance of any sort?

I agree that a diagnosis of bipolar disorder absolves parents of responsibility for the development of their child. Any development that is not favorable can easily be blamed on bipolarity. That said, parenting is difficult. Broad statements can always be attacked since they can never be correct for each and every situation.

There is no doubt that the spike in children with bipolar disorder is linked to the increase in pharma marketing and DTC advertising. I worked at an ad agency and produced DTC advertising before the Vioxx scandal when it was literally everywhere. It is as manipulative and base as you imagined and it is intended to suck you in and convince you that it is your idea that drug therapies are the answer to all that may trouble you or your loved ones.

All of this together leaves me with the thought that the truth is each party, the doctors, parents, pharma comps, wants the easy way out. The doctors want the 20 minute diagnosis. The parents want relief from the difficult child and assurance that they are ok parents and pharma - well they just want revenue and market share.

Definitely note the comment that discusses foster kids and funding of medication for them. One of the places my daughter went as a teen that started her mis-diagnosed journey, was mostly a unit with foster kids. These kids were waiting for RTC's to pick them up, were medicated and the private hospital is funded by the state of Washington. It's a racket.
Wind the tape forward, Ive met 2 of those teens in adult wards. One psychiatrist said to me regarding my advocacy, "don't forget the foster kids". I won't.

Also JB, wow I am so glad to see you write your story here. All I can do is represent my 19 year old here in my words--and hearing from you gives me hope she isn't the only one out there that survived this mass mis diagnosing based on the Biederman Paradigm.

The issue here is not whether or not the parents are to blame and I really don't think Dr. Roberts is blaming parents per se. One of the reasons psychiatry has gotten to the state it's in is because everytime something critical is said about psychiatry the issue is directed away from the real problem and the patient is blamed. With childhood bipoplar, we can't really blame the child so we're blaming the parents. The fact is, parenting probably has not change that significantly over the years, nor has the behavior of children. What has changed is what is being considered a mental illness and the speed and rate at which psychiatrist are writing prescriptions. Psychiatry is never forced to defend themselves because the patients and now the parents are blamed for the failures of the profession. In the mean time, we all continue to be harmed by psychiartic treatments.

I want to clarify for ppl such as redrover interested in my daughters bp story, her dx was based on adverse medication reaction: suicidal ideation within 6 wks use of Imipramine for prevention of bedwetting for 5th grade camp.

She wasn't medicated for any reasons indicated in stories like this one; she wasn't medicated for outbursts or moods. I took her to a psych because of her what he called "intrusive thoughts". I left that office for a life that I had no idea was going to change forever for her and her family along with a Luvox prescription for "OCD", in 1999.

She is a classic case of the Biederman Paradigm influencing doctors via "thought leader syndrome".

2 months later, an inpatient psych doc changed the dx to Childhood Bipolar Disorder.

I'm one of the parents that was told, when I questioned ALL OF IT, "take her off meds and she will kill herself."

Try working against a paradigm set in stone, and it was carved by hand at Harvard.

I came across this story, yesterday:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUKB33509820071121

and it reminded me of something that I saw in Time online (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1580438,00.html). It seems to me that nothing is set in stone, and the very fact that, as the Time article points out, the notion that the brain we have at the age of 18 is effectively the one we die with, is fatally flawed, if not deliberately misleading. The only reason it would stay the same, it seems to me, is if one chooses to reinforce what one has already learnt, and never choose to challenge those beliefs (one indoctrinates oneself, in other words, and finds oneself indoctrinated by others).

It seems to me that if we have a position where only "experts" are able to discover extraordinary new things about us, then we are spiralling into a vortex of our own construction. Anyway, the upshot is that if one can think oneself better at piano, such that one may actually perform better, in practise, and one may think one's physical pain away, then what isn't possible?

Drugs? Purr-lease! Is this the Dark Ages?

Matt

I need to comment here. I am a mother of three. My oldest child in Dx Bipolar. Do I question this Diagnosis? Yes, every day. Do I think of how medicines may have harmed my son. All the time. Am I married to a wonderful supportive man. Absolutely! Did he change jobs and take a huge pay cut just to make sure he was home with his family more? Yes. Do we scrimp and save so one of us can stay home with the kids. Yes. I will be very honest about my relationship with my husband. It is great, and loving. Does it hurt us when our son hits us, throws things at us, uses very foul language and threatens his siblings. Yes. Does this make it harder to have a marital bond. Yes. Do we put us first? Yes
We do have a child who is out of control. He is 12. He does not have access to cable, his own internet or a cell phone. He has restrictions and is not "spoiled". He has not been abused. He has a brother and sister who do not have any of these behaviors. He eats well. We do not buy much processed foods, mostly basic food groups. We do not keep soda and such in the house. Do these restrictions make our son rage angrily! You bet. Has he ripped apart a refridgerator because I "never buy anything good"?
Does he stop when disciplined? NO! Do consequences work with him. Not really.
It is so easy to see these kids from the outside and stand in judgement. They do struggle. They think they are "bad kids" without ever being told so. They hurt because they want to be happy like everyone else. I search a few hours every week for alternatives. I would love to get my son off of meds. I hope I will someday. The last time he was off he got extremely violent, attacking me while I was driving, all of us in the car.
If you have some miracle that I am unaware of, please let me know. I need to keep my son safe, his siblings safe. I do what I need to.

I'd be curious to know the demographics of bipolar in children, but of course it would be false as once you are wealthy enough you can get your child labeded outside of the system.

Also, it occurs to me that if you take your child to a doctor and say fix my child and he tells you your child has a chemical imbalance that fits neatly in the perameters of your insurance coverage and child control needs, he is a hero to you and he gets paid. If he says, well, um all children act like that, and parenting is supposed to be hard, time consuming, heart breaking work not some b*llshit movie of the week happy trip, not only will you not pay, but if you, possibly an abusive parent, provoke your child into violent behavior, under Tarasoff, the victim can sue the shrink. Oh, and what if the shrink, appalled by your abusive parenting skills recommends the child be taken from you? Unfortunately most foster care situations are worse than even the most abusive parenting siutations.

The system is so profoundly f*cked. The more we speak out, and the louder, the quicker we will change the debacle that "biopsychiatry" is.

Who among us does not know someone who makes a living in the mental health industry, the advertising industry, the insurance industry or the legal industry? All of us are forced by the very structure of our society every day to perpetuate the dysfunctional path we are on. And yet here we are trying to improve things. Eventually we'll find a way.

Provide a society with rewarding jobs and not only will imaginary psych aliments and bogus cureall peddelars decrease, but also the birth rate.

Stephen King In “Danse Macabre“
”Love, friendship, loyalty, kindness - these are all the emotions which we applaud, emotions which have been immortalized in the bad couplets of Hallmark Cards and in the verses (I don’t dare call it poetry) of Leonard Nimoy.

When we exhibit these emotions, society showers us with positive reinforcement; we learn this even before we get out of diapers. When, as children, we hug our rotten little puke of a sister and give her a kiss, all the aunts and uncles smile and twit and cry,”Isn’t he the sweetest little thing?” Such coveted treats as chocolate-covered graham crackers often follow. But if we deliberately slam the rotten little puke of a sister’s fingers in the door, sanctions follow-angry remonstrance from parents, aunts, and uncles; instead of a chocolate covered graham cracker, a spanking.

But anticivilization emotions don’t go away, and they demand periodic exercise.”

Spanking is now illegal , so the only option is to drug. Schools also MANDATE drugging or your child can not attend school. by not medicating your child you are abusing him/her reverso logic.

Since a majority of adults with serious psychiatric diagnoses are abuse survivors, physical or sexual, it's hard for me to buy the idea that kids labeled bipolar are in general "spoiled" or undisciplined. They may be growing up in chaos though, neglect causes as much emotional harm as abuse and chaos is not good for children's emotional health. When you combine neglect and abuse and chaos, you get a kid who's going to act out in some way in my opinion.

For the mother looking for a miracle, miracles aren't on offer but have you tried psychotherapy for your son with or without family therapy as an adjunct? Is he always on restrictions? Are his siblings or just him? Does he think he is being singled out? You say you put your marriage first, did someone tell you this would be good for him? Is it? Does he think he is responsible for problems in your marriage? Has he become the scapegoat of your family carrying all family problems? Not saying anyone but you knows the answers to these questions, but they are questions to consider.

Erica, I am currently tapering off a psych med coctail of antidepressants. So I can't really provide specific advice on BP meds.

However, it has been my personal experience that most tapering protocols are way too fast and that could be a reason why your son had the violent reactions he did when tapering off of meds.

For antidepressants, the suggested rate of tapering is 10% of the current dose every 3 to 6 weeks. My guess with BP meds and antopsychotics, which are used for BP, the rate needs to be slower.

When I needed to get med prescriptions filled at doses that you couldn't get for example at your local CVS pharmacy, I went to a compound pharmacist. Google "association of compound pharmacists" to find one in your area.

Of course, you have to get cooperating from your doctor to write the dose you want.

When tapering your son off the meds, you will definitely need to have him on supplements to deal with the withdrawal symptoms, even at a slower rate.

Check this link out:

http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/?s=vitamins

The woman running the site was diagnosed with BP and has used supplements to taper.

But since your son's situation sounds complication, personally, I would look for someone in the alternative mental health field to work with him. Check out http://www.alternativementalhealth.com and they have a link for finding practioners

I hope something I have said is helpful

VB

Erica's story depicts my life with my daughter WHILE MEDICATED. She never did one aggressive action until on Depakote,Luvox,Zyprexa and Zoloft.Those were the worst days of her life, and the most dangerous, with attempted car jumping, raging 6 hours a day, once Zoloft was removed that stopped, and became a constant low grade aggression on Depakote and Zyprexa. As she grew from age 13>17 she noted feeling agitated after her dose of Depakote. She started writing notes and could see how she was feeling was related to the meds. Summer of 17 a pdoc dx her PDD only, and said no meds needed. Removal was too fast and she crashed into what some theories[as no one has answers]call withdrawal psychosis.I've walked in the shoes of Erica, though medication in my daughter's case is what I feel was the culprit.Seems logical to me, when an 11 year old without any hostility gets placed on meds and escalates. Yeah, I learned how to plaster holes in walls, and my daughter lost her life to med trials, psych appts.,50lb weight gain and loss of friends. Now, after all of that, the bipolar dx is gone, she exhibits psychosis, and is on one med for that. She's been traumatized by the system and hospitalizations. In her case, if I could go back in time, and known about these drugs, I would have simply stopped the bedwetting Imipramine, which at age 11 was the only pill she ever took except occasional amoxicillan for bronchitus.
It was a living hell, on those meds.
This is where the topic previously discussed, regarding ADHD, and if kids "outgrow it":

It's worth discussing here re: Childhood Bipolar too. I hate to say this to open pandora's box, but could some of these kids just be plain old attention seeking bullies? negative attention is still attention. Impulse Control Disorder is in the DSM, and psych's use that with medication as well. Could it be possible to start with CBT therapy, talk therapy and sign up for a sport? before medication trials? Give the aggressive kids an outlet to vent their stuff. Sports are a good start. Just a thought. [along with take an rx list dot com search of the meds like Depakote,Zyprexa,Risperdal and see that aggression and agitation are side effects that psychiatrist's end up masking with Klonopin,Ativan,Xanax...]

Hey Erica,

"If you have some miracle that I am unaware of, please let me know. I need to keep my son safe, his siblings safe. I do what I need to."

[shrug] I only know what I've seen. You may well treat your son with the utmost respect and consideration, but that doesn't mean that that's how he sees the world. The world's a messed up place, and God alone knows what he understands by that.

Anyway, what I've seen is that people get used to not being listened to. People have problems, tricky problems, maybe, and others won't help them, even when the person with the problem perceives that the person they're asking has the solution - it really bugs me when people perceive that they have some valuable skill, and won't share it. This is the basis of psychotherapeutic techniques such as NLP - never challenge a person's reality, just maybe drop some alternative information in there, which permits them to reconsider their own position.

I don't know if techniques such as this would have any effect on bipolar. I don't even know what bipolar is, nor if I've ever met a bipolar person. However, the stuff that gets denounced as "mental illness" appears to boil down to "behaviour". Behaviour is trivial to change, provided one offers a sufficiently compelling alternative. That is, give people a more efficient method of achieving what they're wanting to achieve, and they'll drop whatever it is that they've been doing. The "trick," then, if there is one, is to identify what the person is trying to achieve, such that one may look for alternatives.

That's what I've seen.

Matt

Hey Erica,

As an afterthought, and prompted by some of the other suggestions, above, you might want to contact a guy who signs onto Uncommon Knowledge (http://www.uncommonforum.com/)as "satanstoystore". He occasionally posts on the Depression forum, but I think more usually on the Anxiety forum. He's a NLP practitioner (and is probably qualified in other psychotherapeutic techniques, too, for all I know). Once you've made 10 posts, you can access Personal Messaging, and drop him a line, or just start a thread, addressed to him. I sign on as "Radagast," if he wants to know.

From what I've seen of his comments, he knows what he's talking about, and while he may not live anywhere near where you are, he may be able to recommend somebody closer to home (the psychotherapeutic world is probably as small as every world!).

Just a thought, if you fancy giving it a go.

Matt

I worked at a school as a speech pathologist for nine years. Our special education team served as a factory farm for ADHD which then seemed to segue into "bipolar" because of meds. The psychologist would give the Connors scale, pronounce the student ADHD then suggest taking the results of testing to a doctor (wink wink). Finally, after I lost my son to Zyprexa, I could stand it no longer and announced I would no longer attend the meetings if we continued this practice. I showered the principal and the team with articles. And the practice stopped.

There is one small for age Hispanic boy, subdued and doing poorly in his studies, labile and dark circles under his eyes, on meds. Haunts me to this day.

OTOH, a single parent who taught there until asked to leave has two of her boys on ? bipolar meds. She is drugging those children to keep peace in her trailor. She herself is depressed. I do not condemn her but I do not condone putting a lid on the growth of two children.

Yes Matt, it has come to pass that we now talk about mental illness in terms of behavior and that's the problem. To conflate mental phenomena with behavior is to deny the mind exists. Thought, perception, emotion, affect, this is what they're throwing out, human qualities that tend to manifest in relation to environmental stimuli, key word being RELATION. As opposed to a self-generated temperamental or constitutional defect. Why is this the new frame?

At any rate we can recall that it's possible to talk about MENTAL illness as phenomena in its own right, and question the rubric of BEHAVIORAL health, and assert that we do this because we are willing to deal with the whole package, unlike Dr. Elizabeth Roberts, who claims "Rebecca was simply mischievous." Yes, her mother said so. Of course she did.

As for this? (First google hit for Rebecca Riley)

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2007/02/08/dss_case_file/

Did Dr. Roberts miss the first google hit on spoiled brat Rebecca Riley, or is she just another depraved, victim-bashing authoritarian who justifies child abuse by blathering about disobedience? The more I beat her the more she misbehaves, I just don't get it...

Of course we don't notice, it's all right there in front of our eyes, aka the banality of evil.

I know a teacher who diagnoses students ADHD or Bipolar, requests referral for observation, sits in on the meetings, and gives psychiatrist referral names and medication suggestions to parents. That's illegal, and immoral. It happens more than you think.

I think there's more going on here than permissive child-rearing. Child-rearing in absentia is more like it. Over the course of one generation, we've developed a new model of the family, where parenting gets sandwiched between dual income earners' other obligations.

Unfortunately, the average kid is parked in daycare once parental leave is over. Gotta get back to that spend, spend, spend!!! Parenting, such as it is, is practiced after an exhausted commute back from the office. Convenience food gets thrown into the microwave and then the kids are sent to vegetate in front of the TV until bedtime. Public schools have been dumbed down to the point where many kids experience a full day of boredom. This lifestyle doesn't work for kids.

I think it's entirely predictable that this model is not sustainable. Rather than running to diagnose and drug their kids, these adults should have a serious rethink about their priorities.

"...To conflate mental phenomena with behavior is to deny the mind exists..."

Is it? Any behaviour, that is, any physical action that we may take, must have the nervous system as its source, mustn't it? The Ghost in the Machine, as Riles put it? Is the mind, then, synonymous with the whole nervous system (and thus not just the brain)?

I don't know, I'm not a neurologist, even supposing a neurologist would know the answer to that question! However, given, as I see it, the inevitable link between thought and action, I can't see that one can deny that physical behaviour gives a very strong clue, at the very least, as to what's going on beneath.

In any event, if we assume that mental illness is real, and physiological, or chemical, and that there are parts of the brain that are completely normal functioning, but other, damaged parts, that are causing the "damaged behaviour," then we can filch around in the dark with drugs, forever, getting no nearer to a solution (which would probably please a lot of people). Alternatively, we can examine the possibility of a link between thought and action, and see if we can influence the former, by dealing with the latter - I would be surprised if a person could visualize "hug" and throw a punch!

As an aside, I think it's worth remembering that we think in pictures, not words. Constraining a person's vocabulary (there's a lot of it about), merely limits a person's ability to express themselves verbally, it does not alter one iota what they're thinking. Put another way, if somebody is screaming "I'm upset," then telling them not to scream hardly deals with the underlying issue!

Matt

It's news to me that "we" think in pictures. I don't even dream in pictures. Where do you get that generality from Matt? So you're pushing CBT and the child's feelings can just go trash themselves because children and adults who are out of touch with their feelings are so happy...

Actually, autistic kids read pictures, see them, and think that way in many cases. I use PECS all day long teaching non verbal kids. PPL do think in photographic/images; on a personal note, I dream in full blown color, words and scenerio.

Why do I bring up autistic kids? because it's a whole new arena OCD>ADHD>Bipolar>PDD.

Temple Grandin: Thinking in Pictures.

I just want to add my support for those who have recommended to Erica that she appreciate how the violent reaction her son had to going off meds demonstrated the power of her son's dependency rather than an underlying disease and how extremely important it is to come off all psych meds very, very slowly especially when we are talking children here. The 10% rule (taper by 10% of the dose at a time) and leave good gaps between each cut. And only one med at a time. With the current cocktails that are being prescribed we are talking months of patience to get a kid off safely.

Of course many parents do not like to hear this. We like to think that we are better than that. But the sad truth is, that most kids I know, with severe behavioral difficulties, are this way because of the parents and/or the environment in which they are raised.

Hey Alison,

"It's news to me that "we" think in pictures. I don't even dream in pictures. Where do you get that generality from Matt?.."

Well, I suppose it's human nature to look at one's own case, and assume that everybody's doing the same (which probably explains why I get accused of some pretty unpleasant things). I think in pictures, and I assumed that everybody thought in pictures, because otherwise, somebody who had no power of speech (a very young person, for example), would be unable to think in words, which is presumably the alternative. That is, pictures are a universal concept, capable of interpretation in any language, and capable of some level of understanding at any age. Words have to be learned, but enough words create a pattern, or picture, which say a great deal, but much more slowly.

As such, a person who didn't think in pictures (your model), nor words (because they had learnt none), wouldn't think at all, which doesn't seem to make sense, to me. Perhaps the transition between pictures and words, the latter being one logical extension of thought, is too quick to be identified for what it is. Who knows? In any event, does a sportsman, a dancer, or an artist think in words? Certainly in the first two cases, I should have thought describing in words to themselves as to what decisions they should make would be too cumbersome to allow for the evident speed of thought demonstrated by these people - the eye receives more information than any other organ of the senses, I understand, so "picture-thinking" would appear to make sense.

I'm not pushing CBT, nor any other behaviour-based psychotherapeutic technique. It's an option, and I've seen these things work in cases that looked beyond hope. If you get the opportunity, one of the most dramatic methodologies is the so-called Quick Phobia Cure, in NLP, which I think is worth the look.

Anyway, my own experience with drugs was appalling by anybody's standards, so I make no apologies for demonstrating my approval of methods that don't involve drugs' use.

Matt

Hey Stephany,

"...Why do I bring up autistic kids? because it's a whole new arena OCD>ADHD>Bipolar>PDD."

Perhaps that's what autistic/aspberger's people are doing: they've already built up an understanding of how people operate; maybe they understand human interaction very well, in fact. Given the model that they've developed (which has presumably been developed in the context of the wider world, which appears to be in constant conflict), they're looking for clues, which will tell them what any given person is doing.

They're looking for a complete picture, perhaps. Maybe they believe that there is a single set of rules, which governs everybody's conduct, and somebody neglected to mention to them that everybody has their own set of rules, which, on occasion, permit them to dispense with societal norms, in order to achieve something (any criminal activity would be an example of this). When they understand this single set of rules (which doesn't exist, of course), they'll be able to interact with confidence with anybody, but until that time, the world just looks violent and confusing. If they understood that everybody works according to their own, completely unique belief system, then that might be of value to them.

Complete conjecture on my part, of course! But if I'm anywhere near the mark, then it's small wonder that autistics want nothing to do with the "real world". God knows: I don't! They're probably more inclined to shut down, until somebody explains what is required of them.

Matt

I guess I should have been clearer. Most people and children may think in pictures, but some do not. I do not have a vision disability so I don't know if people who do think in pictures, but I suspect most don't. I have never thought in pictures, I may have a learning disability, who knows, but I know how I think. I didn't start speaking until age 3 either and luckily for me this was before the era of every late talker being diagnosed as autistic, because I am not autistic. I am just different and I don't buy into any statement that says we are all the same.

Hey Alison,

"I am just different and I don't buy into any statement that says we are all the same."

Like I wrote: people tend to generalize, according to their own experience. In any event, words, pictures, binary logic system: however it is that people think, the argument is that this impacts the way that they behave. The counterproposition appears to be that irrespective of what they think, they are able to override this, and behave in a completely different way from that dictated by their thought processes.

Would you agree with that last statement?

Matt

Stephany: Thank you for giving some detail about your daughter's descent into hell. Here's what I'm wondering about: Did any of the psychiatrists or other doctors make a physical examination of your daughter? I read somewhere that before a mental illness diagnosis is made a bodily ailment must be excluded. Second, did any of the psychiatrists or other doctors you consulted conducted, or at least recommended, psychotherapy for your daughter? Lastly, does your daughter have any siblings and, if so, what's their condition? My gut feeling -- and I mean no offense to you whatsoever -- that the pills exacerbated the adverse environmental and/or inherited conditions of your daughter. I just don't see your daughter going downhill that fast, including repeated hospitalizations, from the pills alone. Also, did anyone diagnose her with a borderline personality disorder since she engaged in para-suicidal behavior?

As far as doctors medicating kids is concerned, check out a harrowing article from 2005 describing how under the supervision of Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in NYC, minority kids were force fed AIDS drugs, apparently for testing purposes.

http://notaids.com/en/incarnation

She was dx within 30 min OCD, placed on Luvox, increased suicidal ideation as a result, then the pdoc gave her Melleril[11 yr old-], then 3 days later told me to send her to a psych hospital. She crashed Summer 2005 when she went off of all medications abruptly, when pdoc said PDD no meds needed. She's been basically mute since January 2006. I insisted she get an MRI and it took me a year to get that point across, and got it completed while inpatient. Results were Chiari Malformation: brain going into spine, little spinal fluid flow. Can present psychotic symptoms. I found the top neuro surgeon in the area, and last April she went in for what we thought would be preliminary MRI for surgery in Summer 07. Neuro doc and psych doc were in quandary as reasons for symptoms. Chiari appeared to neuro doc as no reason for surgery[unless it gets worse, they don't ever go away, hers appeared to be less than before].It's complex. The one concrete thing we know is she was highly medicated on 11 meds in 13 weeks at high doses at one hospital and she has several inpatient stays due to being bounced in the system once she became a legal adult. Far too complex to try and write more here, especially being I have no clue who I am typing to.

Also, she did drop off that fast. May 2005 she was a Junior in High School, 4.0GPA honor student, volunteer. She has never been the same since August 10, 2005.

Erica, the author makes many good points, and yet, don't jump to the conclusion that she's saying that if you don't spoil your child, he must have a chemical imbalance. Research indicates behavior is alawys caused by something. The history of humanity indicates there's usually trouble in families. Blaming one member of a family, particularly if the member is a child, is a problem noted over and over again in the great literature of the world. Perhaps you should give King Lear, East of Eden, Jane Austen, etc a read.

It sounds like the drugs aren't helping your son, like the withdrawal makes him worse. Poor boy. I hope you discover why you are destroying his life with psych drugs and labels. He's the child not your husband. Your children, not your marriage, needs to come first.

I will respond to some of the statements and questions.
One- I weaned Ben off the meds over 6 months. And it was only one medication. When he went into a rage and ended up hospitalized he had been off of Meds for 2 months. I am very familiar with how to do it. I did not want any problems.

My son is treated fairly in our home. He has a certain attitude or believing he has a right to what ever he wants. We discipline the kids the same depending on the problem. If someone hits, they are handled the same. He does not have all the restrictions because of a punishment. I have taken away cable for us all. I do not buy junk food because i do not want any of us eating it. He knows he has problems controlling his anger. He knows skills to try to stop. He also is told, like my other two kids that he is special, because he is himself. We love him for who he is. He is very impulsive and behaves as if he is entitled to anything. I have a hard time with other kids actually. All of his friends do as they please, have cell phones, internet capable laptops and tvs in their rooms. They eat chips all day and soda. He gets pissed because I do not believe kids need these things.

My husband and I have a pretty strong marriage. We work together. I would say my son does not feel he is a problem in our household. We all have our issues. His happens to be impulsive anger. He knows he does things to hurt people, but he also knows he needs to work that out like we all do. He can't just go around hurting people. I would say though that when he is in a rage there is no talking to him. He is in another place.

My son told me when he was 5 that there was a good voice and a bad voice in his head. He said it is really hard to listen to the good voice. But that he was trying. So we talk about that alot. Listening to the good voice. And making good choices. He hurts when he hurts others. He just wants to be happy. This is what he says.

I did not take the meds lightly. I have a sister who went through all this as a child. My father was a Psycologist. He did not believe in Medicating. That is how I was raised. My mom had a horrible time. My sister had a horrible time. She watches me now, and gets so frustrated. She says she wishes our parents had made the effort to help her as we have our son. She feels if they had, she would not have suffered so much.

I went to Sheppherd Pratt and Johns Hopkins with my son to have him evaluated before we made any medication decisions. He has been doing this stuff since he was old enough to climb in our laps.

My husband and I at one point were standing in the middle of our house with this little 1 1/2 yo attacking us. We hugged each other and cried. Nothing stopped him. Then he would just come over and push us apart and say "hug" wanting to be with us. We pick him up and hold him between us. Family hug. He is like jekyl and hyde. Has always been. I saw this child show anger at the age of 3 months.

I do not take this lightly. Do all of you commenting have kids of your own?

To Stephany: I'm a patient, not a doctor, and have no connection to any doctors, psychiatrists, or psychiatric hospitals. I see your daughter's problem as being neurological, rather than psychiatric, which was exacerbated by Mellaril (a typical antipsychotic), Luvox (an SSR), and other junk. What about the neurological treatments? Is surgery the only option? I still can't believe that the drugs caused all that damage; it's the hospitalizations, perhaps abuse in the hands of medical personnel, that may have caused her to withdraw into mutism. Is there anyone she is not mute with, or is she mute only with you? Why is she not living at home?

To Erica:

It seems that you do not physically punish your 12 year-old son for his violent treatment of you and your other family members. What about people outside the family? Is he violent with them, or is violent only with you, your husband, and his siblings? Has anyone, outside the family, beaten him up? Does he engage in contact sports? What about his medical condition, has that been looked into? You're giving us a snapshot of his behavior in a particular setting, that in his family, but not describing how he acts outside. And why can't he and other siblings have the cable, the internet, the cell phone? Is it porn that you're worried about? The "good voice" in his head is probably his conscience, or superego in the psychoanalytic terms.

Red Rover, what's your diagnoses? and experience with medications? how old are you?

1.She speaks to me in small sentences.
2.She clearly was traumatized when she entered an adult age psych ward.
3.Professionals as well as myself fear she was sexually assaulted within hospital setting, one hospital discharged her when a threat was posed, and after I wrote a letter to the Governor.
4.Her current dx, that shifted from Psychosis NOS the last year, to Schizoaffective Disorder.
5.She is currently taking Clozaril.
6.She resides in a residential care facility, as a direct court order 90 day less restrictive order. I fought in court to prevent state institutionalization, and won. She resides in an open setting with staff,nurse,doctor and support.
7.She is almost 20 years old, and I have hope, where her discharge phosp doc told me there was none. He called her "poor prognosis" and I took him to court. She has thrived since being out of the grip of a locked down facility since Oct.29.
8.The psychiatrist that loaded her up on meds after a 30 minute assessment in 1999 is the one she herself fired at age 17, when he disagreed with her regarding Zyprexa use and diabetes.
9.She hears voices, has had visual hallucinations,and Clozaril seems to help keep those at bay. Not always.
10.The neuro-doc dismissed her case.
11. I have hope that she will live a long life, and that the trauma induced by the psych system hasn't ruined her forever. She was a smart, bubbly young woman, and I miss her.

Hey Erica,

"...I do not take this lightly. Do all of you commenting have kids of your own?"

I don't think anybody means to be judgemental, although, given that I've been taken to task for it, already, I shouldn't generalize!

Anyway, I do have a couple of kids. Although, perhaps they have me - I'm not quite sure, sometimes. My son is convinced he has an anger management issue, or he was. It surprised me when he mentioned it, to be honest, because he appeared to be chilled. He has a methodology that he's developed, by himself, when he gets into an argument, and it's getting out of hand: he just walks away.

I don't know how that strikes you as an idea - it requires a lot of self confidence to concede an argument, because one sees the pointlessness of continuing with it, but it completely disarms a person who deliberately chooses conflict as a means of dispute resolution.

Matt

Erica,

You write "My husband and I at one point were standing in the middle of our house with this little 1 1/2 yo attacking us. We hugged each other and cried. Nothing stopped him."

Perhaps this is a lot of the problem. An 18 month old child weighs about 30 pounds. Are you and your husband both extremely tiny people? Was this child placed in your custody when you yourselves were both toddlers? If not, then you could not have been harmed by a normal baby have a temper tantrum. What the child needed was parents, to attend to him in some way giving affection and setting boundaries, not adults who cling to each other in terror when a baby behaves normally.

Your story reminds me of a woman who when describing her baby, purportedly stricken with infant bipolar, explained that this 3 year old kept trying to commit suicide. It was my neighbor who pointed out one of the more horrific problems with viewing a 3 year old's behavior in this manner, as my neighbor explained, a 3 year old can't possibly attempt suicide because a 3 year old can't possibly understand the concept of death, sort of like how a 1 and a half year old can't understand the concept of other humans completely seperate from himself or the concept of his big giant parents feeling pain, this is not because he's bipolar, it's because he's 18 months old, normal, for goodness sake.

Stephanie: You asked "[1] what's your diagnoses? and [2] experience with medications? [3] how old are you?"

[1] I went to only 1 psychiatrist for about 3 months and to 1 neuropsychiatrist for a visit and testing. The p-doc diagnosed me with OCD and depression and prescribed me Lexapro (which I took for a year at 10 mg after which it pooped out on me and I quit). The n-doc diagnosed me with the non-verbal learning disability and wanted me to take Provigil (off label), which I refused to take. I didn't believe either of these doctors and never went to them again. I took to the books on my own and self-diagnosed myself as having some kind of a personality disorder (schizoid or avoidant) along with some social anxiety.

[2] I have access to the majority of medications on the market and, after extensive reading of the drug books and articles written for psychiatrists and after painful trials and errors, I've settled on Toprol (a beta blocker and a great psychiatric medication in my opinion), a small dose of Klonopin, and an even smaller dose of Xanax. In addition to Lexapro, I tried, without success: Desipramine, Imipramine, Wellbutrin (regular, SR and XL), Ritalin, Dexedrine, Valium, Ativan, and Buspar. I'm not BP in the traditional sense, nor psychotic, and I haven't tried any of the atypicals, nor Lithium, nor any anti-convulsants, after reading about their terrible side-effects.

[3] I'm 43 years old.

To Stephanie: What was the reason for the court order?

red rover:

I do want to thank you for your interest in my daughter's story, and for thinking out loud here. Her story is very complex, as we can read here, and please feel free to read my blog, and ask me questions there. i will be happy to clarify anyone's questions there, so not to create this space all about "me".

I appreciate the interest, and I wanted to express that here for everyone who has heard far too much on this blog about me and my daughter.

Red Rover, You are right, we do not physically punish him for his violence. He has been restricted, grounded from freedoms or things he may want to do. He plays football for fun, and soccer. I assume you are wondering if he gets to act out his aggressions naturally. He is VERY active. Is always on the move. Unless he is using his time on the computer. The restrictions on the cable are not due to porn. I have quite a few reasons. One, it is very commercial. Two, we can get tv entertainment through dvd's and video. We do have basic 22 channels for news and such. Three, It is really expensive. We really want one parent at home and have made a few sacrifices to maintain this. That did contribute, but was just icing on the cake saving some money. He is allowed to use the internet. I see no reason for him to need a laptop of his own in his room. We have a family computer that serves all our needs quite well. And I also have not seen a need for a cell phone. Since my children have a parent at home and I am their transportation most places, I just have not seen a need for that either.

As for his behavior elsewhere. Yes it does leave our house. I would not say he rages as much, but it shines through. He has general impulse control issues, and major problems with appropriate social cues at times. He has had a couple suspensions, we have had a few incidents around the neighborhood with his behavior. To my knowledge he has never been "beaten up" by anyone. He has gotten into some fights, which I know he took equal part in. He is a general terror at times to many he knows.

He has not had a recent neurological workup recently, but did as a preschooler. He is in very good health, nothing has ever shown up that is abnormal. Actually, he is rarely ever sick, other than having a history of headaches. He had those prior to having medication.

Yes, the "good voice" is probably his conscience. That is actually how I explained it to him. I told him everyone has one. We all have thoughts of doing things we should not, but we all need to learn to make good choices to make sure we do not hurt others or ourselves. I say to my kids all the time when they are off on their own doing something, like fishing at the park, "make good choices".

Also, one of my sons ways of handling his anger is to walk away. And it can help. Sometimes he comes back in a different mood. Sometimes he feeds it while walking away and comes back ready to escalate into a full blown rage. Sometimes it is hard to know who he will be. I just am usually ready for anything.

I will say the meds help. They are not a cure, or a solution. They do not make our life easier. They seem to keep him from saying he hates himself and would be better off dead. I have two other kids who seem to get what we are teaching them. One is pretty stubborn, but she is able to be motivated to improve, and try. To say I put my kid on meds because I do not want to try would be unfair to say. I still have to plan my while life around this childs moods. I have to be prepared to stop what I am doing to redirect him or tend to his siblings when he is unreasonable. His moods effect the whole household. The same way any person who has a ailment of any kind would. We adjust, we make do.

Matt, I got a little lost in what you were trying to say. Maybe you could put it a different way.

To Erica: Someone said that the sickest member of the family is the one in control of the family. Does he have a role model? What is his relationship with his father? Does he have a hobby? If he likes military things, what about letting him attend some kind of a military-related school? Or have him join the kids' division of the Police Athletic League. It'll give him the structured environment which you're striving to provide him with, the strong male role models, plenty of physical exercise to work out his aggression, and some future goals and an acceptable place in society. The way things are going, you're keeping him on a short leash, but once the hold is weakened, he's apt to cause you and others a lot of grief, especially when he gets older. I think you're doing the best that you can do for him, on a short-term basis, but you need to keep your long-term goals in mind: he is more and more dangerous every year, he may kill you or burn the house down. Fortunately, society encourages aggressive behavior in certain occupations, such as military or police. Just consider these suggestions while his police record is non-existent (or, if he has one, can be suppressed because he is still a juvenile).

Hey Erica,

"Matt, I got a little lost in what you were trying to say. Maybe you could put it a different way."

On which point?

Matt

Sally, I understand what you are saying. I agree a child needs parents to be the ones in control. The ones making decisions. We had reached this point not from physical pain, obviously. We were exhausted, that is all. From the constant intense behavior from this small child. He would not respond to time outs, holding him, or anything when he was like this. It would switch without warning. He had night terrors also. Would wake in the night and scream, slamming himself into the sides of his crib for 20 mins, before falling into a deep sleep again.

I have been around many babies, have two others of my own. I know what "normal" behavior is. The scene I was describing was pure and simple. Two people tired and not knowing what to do. Frustrated because they loved this little guy who had no idea what he was doing. He just at the age of 11 has started to "get it" in some ways. His maturity level is way low for his age. He is less able to handle things than an average 8 year old. This child did not respond well to any re direction.

I must add that I do not know that his Bipolar Dx is correct. WHo does. It seems to be a toss of the dice, even coming from the Drs. They do not know. I know this. My son is who he is. I just want him to be able to have a life. That is all. I do not care if it has a "name" I just deal with his symptoms daily. Trying to teach him how. I found this site searching for alternatives. Because, lets face it, the meds are not perfect. I would much rather use my time teaching him how to deal with this world without them. I am searching for HOW? Without my son falling into a state of depression and rage to the point of hurting himself and others.

Red, I understand your frustration with the system of Drs. They never seem to know what they are doing. It is the scariest thing in my world. It is the hardest thing I have ever done, and face it every day, the feeling like I have to trust these people to make decisions about how to treat my child. I try to educate myself as much as I can. They often do not listen to a parent. They have their own agenda.

Matt, That is exactly how I handle it. I walk away. What I have been doing for a while now. Has been my best way. When he is foul, throwing every word he can think of, trying really hard to egg me on, trigger me. I walk away. Sometimes is hard to because you get punched in the back. He always raises the stakes. I am well trained at this, having grown up with a sibling like this. She used to stop if I went up and hugged her. Sometimes. Depended how far gone she was. Took a lot of risk for me to test that theory, I tell you. These kids do not want to behave this way, it is almost like a high they get. As my 8 year old says about his brother "Mama, he will never get it. He just does not understand". This child is the most frustrated in the house by it. I welcome any ideas, really!

Aw man, do you know how often I wonder if I am causing all this. Ben does not like the military, but does say he is interested in the schools. We have discussed this with him. The structure is appealing. He has a wonderful role model in his dad. He is a hard worker, strong, caring and very friendly and outgoing. They do alot together. Play football, soccer, fish, wrestle, jump on the trampoline. My son, oddly, does not like violence. He does not want to get hurt or hurt anyone. He wanted to be a cop a while back, until he found out they get shot at and have to shoot people. He said "I don't want to get hurt."
Although we do not have guns in the house, and I keep the knives put away, I do not fear my son. I take one day at a time.

because mental health court is part of being involuntarily committed, which she was due to no hospital taking her voluntary. i didnt sign the paperwork committing her and was therefore appointed her guardian ad litem. i was her voice when she was mute. i did everything in my personal power to watch over her and when that doc said state hospital, i advocated like a steamroller from hell for her. beating a docs discharge plan doesnt sit well in those places. they were flabbergasted when i slammed into court the day before they were to send her to the state hospital with a plan they knew nothing about. residential care, that i personally found.

Erica, glad to hear you were well informed about tapering when you took your son off meds. That definitely serves to minimize problems but it doesn't necessarily eliminate them. Even though violence didn't erupt until two months after the completion of the taper this still could be related to chemical dependency. People report taking months, if ever, unfortunately, to recover from psych drug treatment. Rebound symptoms can crop up after weeks of relatively smooth sailing and the professionals rush to call it relapse. It's really protracted withdrawal syndrome. This isn't to say there might not be some mental anguish or "life disorder" troubling your child despite your best efforts as parents. I just hope you have explored everything and if you ever do try going off meds again give it lots and lots of time before resuming.

Sara brings up a good topic re: withdrawals. When my daughter at age 13 was loaded up on 150mg.of Zoloft[besides other meds]and was having 6 hour long rages so it was removed---far too fast--once it was gone though it was still 2 solid months AFTER removal where her agitation/aggression stopped. Some ppl say it can take 18 months and withdrawal symptoms [such as agitation]can come and go.

Dear Erica,

I read your narratives with much interest knowing as a fellow support person and care giver that you and your family have had an extremely difficult road to hoe and the toll it exacts on all family members. While you read all these many responses the fact remains these are all theories and personal experiences lacking any definitive answers and like you, I couldn’t care what labels or diagnosis are assigned as my only interest is wellness for my spouse. What we are unfortunately or fortunately ultimately left with is the “Trial and Error Approach toward Wellness”.

I would continue educating me as much as is reasonably possible and hopefully a treatment regimen will be arrived at that will afford your son some degree of control, stability and long-term remission and a reasonable quality of life and some peace for you all.

I too can understand your love and devotion and the special needs of one. You are not alone in your experiences although very challenging. I have heard of far worse where parents are fearful of their lives and sleep behind locked and secure doors in their own home.

Thanks for sharing.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Hey Erica,

"...I welcome any ideas, really!"

I fight shy of offering advice, when I'm "blind," to a large degree (ie, I've never met your son, and don't really understand the extent of the issue). My son used to start flailing, when he was struggling to get his point across, so I would stand there and let him punch the hell out of my legs, before asking him what the problem was. This was when he was 4 or 5 years old, and couldn't do any real damage, though.

He still blows his top at me, from time to time, usually when I do something that he perceives to be "quite obviously" calculated to inconvenience them! He doesn't use violence, though. I ask him to explain the problem, and when he's calmed down, and explained things, I try to fix it. I might explain the pattern to him, next time, so that he can test it, going forward, which ought to give him confidence in the process.

I don't know, to be honest. If it were me, I'd try to work out the pattern, and identify when he's beginning to spiral into an "angry episode," for wont of a better way of putting it. Then I'd try to step in, before it got that far, next time. I'd ask him to state the problem, and tell him that I was going to try to fix it (no promises, mind), and if he had a problem with my fix, I'd ask him to explain what was wrong with it. I'd tell him that I would walk away if he became violent (be matter of fact, don't use it as a threat), and that when he'd calmed down, we'd try again. And I'd explain what I was doing, so that he had a recognizable dispute resolution process.

If you do use this, be sure to be consistent, because as soon as you deviate to the disadvantage of your son, he'll probably regard it as unreliable, which is probably how he sees the world, at large. In fact, you may well be reaping the fruit sown by the wider world - he may see it as unreliable, and deceitful, and assumes that that's the case with you, too (I'm generalizing for my own case, again!). If you give him something that's absolutely reliable, he'll always have something to fall back on, especially in his dealings with others.

Matt

I strongly feel that "walking away" is a bad idea because the kid would perceive it as (1) separation which would cause him additional anxiety, (2) avoidance by his mother of whatever is troubling him, and/or (3) fear of him by his mother. You need to face the kid and deal with whatever is troubling him on the spot.

Another problem with "walking away" is that even if the kid is quiet after your return, that doesn't mean that his problem has gone away; the kid may have internalized it (meaning, kept it within himself) waiting for the problem to reappear when (and if) it's subsequently triggered.

Erica,

It's brave of you to discuss your son here. I can tell you care about him.

Here's another theory...your son was one and a half and when you began to completely stop whatever you were doing when he became intense, i.e. had a temper tantrum. Thus you reinforced his negative behavior unintentionally with the best of intentions. In other words you trained him to lose control if he wanted your attention. To you it would seem he was born this way because from the first time he behaved this way you responded by giving him total attention and thus reinforcing his behavior. What to do now? It sounds like you are on the right path what with questioning his label(dx) and tapering him off of meds. As for the rest of it, I wish you luck. I am curious, is he the oldest child? Sometimes parents treat a first child differently from lack of experience. On the other hand, when I was a child my best friend's younger sister would wake the entire household up every night banging her head against the wall. I spent many a night there and heard this. Her family would just wake up and think, that's just Elizabeth banging her head agaisnt the wall. The doctor told them she would grow out of it. She did. Now she has a Ph.d., a husband and children. Today she would have been dx'd autistic or maybe bipolar and her mind disolved with psych drugs, labels and segregation before she was out of junior high.

However, neuroplasitcity teaches us that the human mind can recover from anything.

It seems like your entire family life and personal identity is built around "having a bipolar child." I bet your other kids often use "my brother is bipolar" as an excuse to get out of various commitments, etc. Herb who posts here is a good example of someone who identifies not with his own behavior but with the purported biological defects of his spouse. This is odd. Are you familiar with NAMI - the drug company sponsered club and political action group for people who blame their problems on the purported brain defects of their relatives? NAMI is the worst example of this sort of thinking with relatives whining that they are bankrupt, divorced, wrongly convicted of child abuse, etc. because of someone else's purported biological defect. Another way to go is the Alanon way. Alanon, as you may know, is a support group for people who have been affected by other people's alcoholism, usually family members. In Alanon people learn that blaming their actions on other people's illnesses is sick itself and learn valuable tools for dealing with someone who has destructive behavior. I think the Alanon model is far superior to NAMI morally and unlike NAMI's model of blame, shame and drug, it works.

"Another problem with "walking away" is that even if the kid is quiet after your return, that doesn't mean that his problem has gone away; the kid may have internalized it (meaning, kept it within himself) waiting for the problem to reappear when (and if) it's subsequently triggered."

To clarify, "walking away" has a very specific application: it is the response to violence. The alternative is to engage in violence oneself. As I suggested, it is made clear that seeking to understand the problem, and attempting to formulate a solution is always the ultimate objective. Logically, given that what is wanted is a solution, not conflict, one will eventually short circuit the cycle, cutting out the violence, and head straight for solution-finding.

[shrug] It works for me. As I wrote, I don't know Erica's son, but it wouldn't surprise me to discover that when he gets angry, he's getting angry because he's upset about something and he perceives that nobody's going to listen to his grievance, let alone seek to find a solution.

However, Erica's stated issue is the violence, and one has to get that out of the way, first, before one can deal with whatever gave rise to it. One has to de-escalate, in short.

Matt

I must say, you have all given me alot to think about. Matt, you are correct. I do need to walk away at the point I am referring to. It is that or get physical. I am not into the fight of strength with him. He is usually in this state after not feeling as if he is getting his way. Ultimately getting a no for an answer. Or anyone trying to control his choices at all. For instance, telling him he may use the computer after he picks up his coat and shoes from the floor. Then sticking to what I said. This causes a rage if it is a bad day. By rage I mean punching a hole in the wall, sweeping a tables contents onto the floor and pushing by me. Then you can start in on dealing with the added behaviors OR, try to talk to him about why it makes him so angry, OR give him an alternate deal, OR walk away, or get angry back and lose all control over the situation. Note: He does not hear ANYTHING you say.

If I walk away, either he drops it, or he says he is sorry and does what he is asked. Sometimes he asks me to help him. Sometimes it escalates.

Sally, I do see your point about it being the first child. We are sure to have done some things differently with the first. I know of some things for sure. Those would be having the time to feed him every two hours as a newborn. Singing to him for long periods while nursing. Talking to him alot. More patience. I probably carried him alot more, I wore a pouch with my babies in it alot. He had our undivided attention alot of the time. I guess it is possible he felt he was responded to too much, or maybe got too much attention.

I would not say I would stop whatever I was doing when he got intense. If he refused to do something I asked, for instance throwing a toy I asked him to pick up, I would walk him over to the toy and ask him to pick it up. He sometimes would refuse again, hit, knock over some stuff. He would then be put into a time out. At which time he would get up again and punch me. I would take him to his room and tell he he is to stay in there until he is able to calm down. He would then pull over a bookshelf, pull everything out of his closet. It usually continued like that. Now that was an example of about age 3. Earlier it was a little different, later, a little different, but you can get the idea. I will admit to often feeling like I just did not know what to do next. I was often spending his nap rehashing it with my mom, or a friend or my husband. Wondering if there was a better way to handle it. I am sure I made a ton of mistakes. I don't know one parent who has not. I think the difference may be he always went further than other kids. He would not stop.
I must say, right now though he is doing very well. Reasonable even. My husband and I have told him so many times in the past week. Noticing a BIG difference in him. Maturity. He changes so often. I just want to find the best way for him to learn how to live and function. It was hard teaching this to someone who WILL NOT hear you at all. He is learning from our example. He does hold our values. That shines through sometimes.

Not so brave, just interested in options I may not be aware of. Concerned and motivated.

Erica,

Here is a list of books that might be helpful. I linked Ross Green, also I recommend T.Berry Brazelton, and do a google search for "Love and Logic" classes.[or find the tapes at a library or school].

Consistency works, as well as choosing battles. One thing that was brought up here which must be remembered--is negative attention is still attention. Give him 2 choices. Let's say he earned an allowance once a week for keeping his toys/things picked up. When he refuses to pick up the toy, you simply tell him "You can pick it up or pay me to do it." If money matters to him at all, he will pick up that toy.

He's going to up the ante for attention, even though he gets all of it.

I highly suggest getting him involved in community service. Food banks, etc. when my daughter was having horrible rages on medications she volunteered [at age 12 to present time, when able]in the hours she was volunteering, she was calm, it boosted her self-esteem, and put her mind elsewhere.

I empathize with your situation. He needs an outlet. Art classes, anything where you or the father are not in charge. Good luck.

Dear Sally,

“Here's another theory...” --- Sally

As usual your ramblings caught my eye. Except the above one statement I can fully agree with.

It seems I’m not the only one that has differences with your thoughts, statements or whatever. Just prior to your post, Red Rover expressed his thoughts totally contrary to yours and your anecdotal story referencing Elizabeth.

“I strongly feel that "walking away" is a bad idea because the kid would perceive it as (1) separation which would cause him additional anxiety, (2) avoidance by his mother of whatever is troubling him, and/or (3) fear of him by his mother. You need to face the kid and deal with whatever is troubling him on the spot.” --- Red Rover

I’m also reminded of a news article I had read several years ago of parents being indicted in the death of their child from a brain hemorrhage after the child’s repeated head banging against a wall and other objects. Not that you wouldn’t be first on line to blame the parents for the child’s death, would you?

I’m certainly pleased Elizabeth’s outcome was far better and that the “doctor” and his theory were correct in that instance.

I also have to chuckle about your reference to neuroplasticity of the brain.

“However, neuroplasitcity teaches us that the human mind can recover from anything.” --- Sally

Of all people, you discussing a bio-neurochemical function of the brain. Hmmm, are there X-rays, blood tests, MRI of this phenomenon? Please don’t get me wrong as I too believe the brain like other bio-neurochemical functioning organs has the capacity to some extent repair itself and continue functioning. I’m also surprised that you didn’t throw in for good measure neurogenesis. But then again medications, ECT and the like have been found responsible for some aspects of neurogenesis and that goes against your preaching’s.

I do like it better when you begin your ramblings with “Here's another theory...” I can more readily appreciate your thoughts as opposed to:

“Herb who posts here is a good example of someone who identifies not with his own behavior but with the purported biological defects of his spouse. This is odd.” --- Sally

Unlike you and your lack of knowledge and presumptuous attitudes toward anyone who would disagree with your ramblings, I spend time in talk-therapy to evaluate my thinking and my responses especially those relating to the support and care giving for my spouse. And unlike you, based upon your writings, I do not agree that all questionable behaviors and mood states are a result of improper nurturing, abuse and stress whether situational or environmental etc and there exists in many individuals a genetic predisposition to some of these very severe and life threatening mood disorders.

“It seems like your entire family life and personal identity is built around "having a bipolar child." I bet your other kids often use "my brother is bipolar" as an excuse to get out of various commitments, etc.” --- Sally

Serious mood disorders are extremely disruptive to family life, exact a heavy toll on all family members as I experienced and know and unlike your negative thinking my efforts along with caring for my spouse were also directed toward maintaining family stability and as normal a life for me and my daughter as was possible at that time. While I currently continue to face my spouse’s other neurological challenge I continue my supportive efforts bolstered through help of family, friends, psychotherapy and trusted, caring, knowledgeable and licensed health care professionals rather than much of your unsubstantiated hearsay and presumptuous attitude toward any dissent.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

My own experience with my dear daughter and comments were posted previously on Liz Spikol's blog @
http://trouble.philadelphiaweekly.com/archives/2007/11/it_fits_my_daug.html

From day one, my late husband and I instinctively knew she was wired differently. She rarely slept through the night, had lots of sensory issues and developed some obsessive fears early on. We took her to Sylvia Rimm, a now renowned child psychologist specializing in parenting, child development and learning who has written books on raising gifted children, success for girls, and communication skills. She is a proponent of "referential speaking" as a powerful tool for behavioral modification. We diligently followed her treatment, which was to not in anyway reinforce or pay attention to her fears. She told us that within 2 months, our daughter would be free of her fears. Well, she was right to not make a big deal of her irrational fears but it took 3 years for our daughter to finally outgrow these fears. To this day, my dd can not explain or understand why she was almost incapacitated by the "wet paint" episode on Sesame Street (and several other intense fears) to the point that she wouldn't visit her friends' homes because she was terrified that they might turn on SS and she might see that episode. These fears were not learned----neither my husband nor me were afraid of Sesame Street, jack o' lanterns, clowns, etc It was not our parenting or her "manipulation" that caused these paralyzing fears and nothing the esteemed child psychologist suggested---ignoring, using referential speaking and other behavioral modification techniques helped. It took lots of time and growing up to finally get past these irrational fears (which were replaced, alas, with other major anxieties and emotional lability).

Fast forward to grade school, when she was anxious about going to school and felt like she was a "failure" (in 2nd grade!---and no, we were not putting pressure on her or expecting some sort of high achievement!). We went to a family therapist together for several months, who listened and helped us with communication styles and who tried to use reason and logic with our daughter re: her negative feelings about herself. It helped a tiny bit but her high anxiety temperament was still with her, dating back to her toddler days. She was/is a very intelligent and creative person and we got her involved in art, drama and music. She was never a bored child and TV was a rarity. She loved being outdoors and ate very well. We loved her unconditionally for who she was but could see how much SHE was suffering. We read all the books, went to parenting classes and tried to figure out why these things weren't helping. We never used medication. We never blamed her for her fears or made her feel like she was "the black sheep" of the family. Like ALL parents, I KNOW we made mistakes but in my gut and in my heart, I knew this was beyond her control and ours.

Fast forward again---after her father's unexpected death when she was a fragile 14, I immediately found grief counselors for both of us. But things spiraled out of control very quickly and 6 months later, she made her first suicide attempt. No one was even considering a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. Hell, she was in a deep depression because her beloved Dad died. Several crises and hospitalizations later, with psychological testing showing s&s of a mood disorder----racing thoughts, impulsivity, manic behavior,etc---and a detailed review of her family history resulted in the diagnosis of BP disorder. I was shocked beyond belief. Like many, she had to go through different trials of meds to achieve some stability. Please read my original post per above link at The Trouble with Spikol for the "rest of the story."

There is so much self-blame, blame and judgment by many psychiatrists & psychologists, family and friends and then, from the "experts" who post on several mental health blogs with such arrogant authority. I have always considered myself to be skeptical yet open-minded and have learned so much by reading Philip's blog. I have not posted lately because I decided to take a break from some of the extremely insulting, judgmental and inflammatory comments posted to this blog. But I felt compelled to share my story with Erica and to tell her: be open, learn everything you can (and Furious Seasons has much to offer), ask lots of questions, be skeptical and careful about the supposed benefits of medication but TRUST YOUR GUT & YOUR INSTINCTS. Whether it's your son's mental health professionals, neighbors or people who post here, YOU know YOUR son better than ANYONE else. It's obvious in your posts that you love and care about your son and that are open minded and willing to listen and learn from others. Keep educating yourself and ask lots o' questions --- that's what a loving parent/advocate must do. Stephany, a mother/advocate extraordinaire, recently posted essentially: "IF I only knew then, what I know now...." I couldn't agree more and man, have I been there often in the past 25 years. There are indeed self-serving & dangerous doctors, drugs and pharmaceutical companies out there, who have hurt, damaged and caused the death of many innocent lives. I would NEVER understate the huge risks involved as we try to find help for our children. I wish you and your son and your family hope, strength and calmer days ahead. ~~Nancy

Hi Erica,
I've been following this thread but haven't said anything until now because yesterday I went to see my neuro-psychologist and we started talking about this phenomena known as pediatric bipolar disorder.

He studies neurofeedback in the so-called bipolar person and does a lot of research with children. Some children get very good results.

Finding a practitioner can be tricky but if you find a good one retraining the brain can help with the moods and the poor impulse control. It got rid of my depression entirely until I went too long without it (and I began withdrawing from drugs and my brother died) and I have not had a manic blip at all since I started it 4 years ago. I had taken care of my impulse control issues already by growing up so I can't talk from first hand experience about that. (I also follow a strict whole foods diet and add nutrients)

For info on neurofeedback look at

http://www.eegspectrum.com/

http://www.aboutneurofeedback.com/

The second site gives tips on finding a provider which can be tricky since it's not a tightly controlled field as far as licensing goes. There is a directory of providers I believe on both sites. My provider always tells me when I'm seeking referrals for friends that they should ask the provider if they worked with bipolar for at least 5 years and have a majority of clients they see for that reason.

I do believe that our brains get out of whack. Not because of some innate disease process but because of whatever life deals us. My EEG has changed radically since I've done neurofeedback and changed my diet and I'm off about 3/4's of the mega-doses of multiple meds I was on.

good luck.

Hey Erica,

"Wrong" is in the eye of the beholder! Most people would perceive that you've already tried a helluva lot harder than many do!

Do you fancy playing "Columbo"? This is the game where you play dumb as hell, and then deliver the incisive question, just as you turn to leave, if you remember the cop show. If it were me, I'd ask him why he threw the toy - I'd use that as my "in". He may have no idea, but that's fine. Just paraphrase his answer back to him, in the tone you might use if you were asking him if he wanted a glass of milk, at bedtime "you've no idea why you threw the toy? OK. Would you like to pick it up?"

If he answers "no," then ask him why. If he becomes defensive, tell him "that's OK, it doesn't matter," and end the conversation.

The idea is just to make the scenario as different as possible from previous, similar events. This may not work, because he may choose not to recognize your authority, (or he may just be so ingrained in his current pattern, that he'll do everything in his power to return to familiar territory, however destructive), and if my guess is right, he's bright enough to recognize an attempt at a reframe, without even realizing that's what he's being presented with - in other words he'll realize very promptly that you're acting in a completely different way to previously, and may be suspicious of your motives. To offset this, you may want to tell him exactly what you're doing, which is to try to break him out of his pattern, and into something that has more potential, shall we say?

Matt

Hey, Sally. Have you read Norman Doidge on neuroplasticity? Fascinating reading. The brain can be measurably altered through cognitive training. There's now real hope for the brain damaged, including those brains damaged by drugs and electroshock.

Can we make a deal? We could both try not to get into a dialogue with Herb. He appears incapable of either formulating or responding to an argument. I'm not going to waste any more of my time on him and I hope you don't either.

Not to overwhelm Erica, but having a daughter inpatient at Children's psych unit: mandatory parenting classes. What they teach there is based on Gottman. It's called emotion coaching. I also work in schools and use many techniques from all of the books I've recommended. One thing I wanted to pass along is what I've been taught re: my job and crises, for example, someone walks into the school with a gun pointed at me. "Appear confident". Sometimes, when a child is challenging a parent with behavior they are watching for a reaction, and after time, it becomes a learned behavior. Does that make sense? I know what it is like in your house. My daughter may have had other reasons to rage[meds, impulse control issues, hormones, who knows now seriously], but I want to tell you a story so that you do not feel alone.

I did everything you talk about. Walking away, time out [for myself!]oh anything to remove myself from being a target for the rage. One day, I was outside mowing the grass. I could hear a terrible screaming and banging and it was my daughter.She had kicked off the screen door, flipped my patio planters over [the one my kids built me that says MOM on it]and yelled "bitch" so loud I heard that over the mower too. I didn't react. I kept mowing. She got worse. I have no way to help give advice at this point where that story is---it was terrible--nothing promoted her behavior, I wasn't in the house. BUT she wasn't getting attention. Here is the catch 22 in that--the negative attention--she sobbed later for dumping the planter--and helped me pick it up. She felt HORRIBLE and cried and asked for help. She was also on a lot of meds that agitated her. I have no explanation as you feel you don't--I totally get that.

I'm a calm person, I work in schools, remain calm in crises, all of it. My daughter baffled me at times. The only thing that was different from her pre-med days was that she was on meds. So was it her or the meds, and the worst part was, hearing her sob and say, "Mom is it me or the meds?" as she got older.

I want to tell you that drywall doesn't matter. You will get through this, and so will your son.

But be prepared to shift and change, as it can take its toll. Take care of yourself. 15 minutes a day, a sign on your door says "Mom not available." Even if he kicks your door for 15 minutes. Eventually he won't.

Gottman Institute.

I want to show 2 differences here with 2 kids.

Nancy's daughter and my youngest of 3 daughters.

Nancy describes her daughter with early signs of what might have been coming down the road, regarding moods, suicide attempt, all of it.

That classic child who didn't sleep well, etc. I say classic, meaning it's one of the general "look out" red flags that other parents have alerted us to regarding bipolar dx.

My daughter was on the other end of the extreme.

She is the one I called, "the dream baby". She slept all night, she smiled so much, and she never cried. She was calm and happy.

She also was delayed in speech and walking by a solid 3.5 months. [than the typical bracket of time, and compared to her sisters who walked before age 12 months, etc.].

So, here are 2 mothers.

Nancy and myself, with daughters that have extreme stories.

What is the base? this is what we all do not know. As mothers, we rack our brains.

We lose sleep at night, we question, ask and challenge with our fists in the air.

But when we see victory--that is the goal---that our daughters "make in life".

My daughter, and Nancy's are 2 examples of very different presentation of illness or prodromal schizophrenia, bipolar, mood whatever we call it--meds vs. no meds---what we see as women and mothers and I know I can speak for Nancy here, is children who survived hell, and are here on earth for us to celebrate.

Whether holding down a job or living in residential care--they are alive and sometimes, we need to think about that.They are here!

All of the "in between" stuff, the moods the rages, the suicidal thoughts or attempts, chasing kids down roads, dodging lemons overhead as [I cooked dinner], well none of that matters in the end.

Life matters. Thank God they have life.

Nancy's Story at Spikol's Blog.

Stephany's Story at Spikol's Blog.

I also wanted to make a light hearted comment. Nancy, can I make business cards with that description? "Mother/Advocate Extraordinaire". HA HA That made me laugh out. Thank you.

Erica, Last night I was about to respond further to your comment that "I must say, right now though he is doing very well. Reasonable even. My husband and I have told him so many times in the past week," that this is wonderful. I'm so glad you and your family are able to see past psych labels to the good (k)id you have. I still think it is and yet I note with irony that we are conversing in the context of commenting on an article in which a psychiatrist says parents are requesting that psychiatrists label their children as bipolar so they can get drugs from phrinks to tranqulize instead of parent the children, that symptoms labeled childhood bpd are really symptoms of being "spoiled." I think she misuses the term spoiled.

The problem with the article is that the pshrink/author seems to believe that it is okay to give children false lables and drugs when their "training" indicates the child's problems are environmental or exist only in the parents' mind. Still any criticism of the bipolar paradigm helps and I'm sure the pshrink/author has taken a lot of heat inside of her profession for this nascent attempt to speak out about a horrible problem.

Which reminds me of Jane's comment which I think sums the whole thing up "One of the reasons psychiatry has gotten to the state it's in is because everytime something critical is said about psychiatry the issue is directed away from the real problem and the patient is blamed."

It's not your fault a psychiatrist diagnosed your child and drugged him. You are to be commended for questioning the diagnosis and treatment.

When a doctor gives a diagnosis and prescribes a treatment, it is the doctor and not the patient that should be blamed. For this pshrink to have the courage to speak out about the invalidity of the childhood bipolar diagnosis is courageous, for her to blame the diagnosis on the parents and not the doctors, reprehensible.

Look at the case of abusively warm Herb, a frequent commenter on this blog. It's clear he's troubled and harming his wife and yet some mental health professional and some judge have given him legal guardianship of his wife. Once his wife went outside of the family for help, voluntarily or involuntarily, her condition became the responsiblity of the mental health professionals who continue to allow this sick man to control her. If the system worked, this poor woman wouldn't be trying to find a way to commit suicide constantly and she would not have lost her legal status as an adult to be placed in the legal custody of her abuser. But the system doesn't work. If there is any hope we all, even the abusers like Herb and especially the loving, involved parents like you, must continue to communicate and think and work.

Life has always been difficult and complex and humans have looked to lots of solutions that proved ineffective and eventually discarded them, hopefully biopsych will be discarded before it does much more harm. Continue to question authority and love and nurture your family.

Francesca,

Thanks for telling me about the Doidge book. I haven't read it but I will.

A local Atlanta writer I really like for his restuarant reviews had this to write about neuroplasticity and the Dali Lama's attendance at a forum on "depression," here in Atlanta. Phillip and Stephany both mentioned the conference. Bostock, in his piece didn't mentioned Nemeroff and used the Dali Lama at the depression conferencefor a criticism (if veiled) of biopsychiatry. Here's the link to his little article:

http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A330113

As for Herb, you've got a deal.

Hey Herb,

"[To Erica]...Unlike you and your lack of knowledge and presumptuous attitudes toward anyone who would disagree with your ramblings, I spend time in talk-therapy to evaluate my thinking and my responses especially those relating to the support and care giving for my spouse..."

I was just wondering - if you don't consider the possibility of the nurture over nature argument, how does it benefit you to evaluate your thought processes? Surely, if your discussions with your therapist suggest some kind of disorder, then discussing it is of no value, because there will be no way that you can change it? Moreover, wouldn't it be stressful, having an issue revealed to you, that you hadn't considered before, and yet could do nothing about?

Which technique(s) does your therapist use, if you don't mind my asking?

Matt

Dear Sally,

It seems you don’t read too clearly, now do you?

“My depression was not situational. In fact, my bout of suicidal thinking came during a good period of my life. Like many others, I seem to be predisposed to depression.” --- Cliff Bostock

So who do want to blame for this psychologist’s return “to a state of dysthymia?” Oh, maybe I shouldn’t use Bostock’s own label of dysthymia as we wouldn’t want to offend you and the sock puppet now would we.

Let’s play your games and blame his mom and dad or better yet, he’s an adult now, let’s blame his “partner of 14 years, three cats and the ghosts of two canaries.” Maybe he too has not read enough books to analyze and determine the causes for his, shsss, illness.

I’m happy for you and your sock puppet friend for having all the answers and certainties to not only your lives but for everyone else. I simply don’t agree with many of your simplistic thoughts,hearsay and dogma knowing the uniqueness of individuals and the same uniqueness and responses to treatments.

I’m also saddened to think but I would not want to delusion you that, in your mind, you have me down pat (i.e. abusively, troubled, harming his wife, given him legal guardianship, this sick man, poor woman, lost her legal status, legal custody of her abuser; amongst other of your demented statements) except for the fact that you are categorically incorrect in each of your hearsay statements. Obviously in your case facts are immaterial when you have the liberty of your delusions.

If attacking one’s character is the best of your childish efforts in responding to my points, enjoy yourself with your sock puppet.

Sally, by the way you also might be interested:

“MY WORK is personal growth but no longer psychotherapy in the conventional sense. (And my work is not intended for people with mental health disorders.)” --- Cliff Bostock, Ph.D

One last point Sally dearest, the only book my wife and I utilized in rearing our daughter was from Dr. Benjamin Spock’s writings and do you know what? Our daughter is mature, healthy, well balanced, intelligent, attractive, happily married and the mother also of two healthy, well balanced, intelligent, maturing daughters (our delicious grandchildren).

So how the heck this did all happen based upon your continuing hearsay or, in my opinion, rightfully labeled dogma?

Best regards to you too Francesca, enjoy your worlds. I didn’t mean to intrude.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Once more, into the breach ...

1. Herb, I'm sure you remember what happened the last time we tangled. In case you forgot, and in case anyone else is interested, please review the comments on The Price Of A Drink. Now, I'm no knight in shining armor, but it does seem odd that every time I see a condescending post from you which wasn't prompted by someone else (since I came looking for it, I'm ruling out our previous exchange), it seems to be directed at a woman so I'll simply put you on notice - behave and play nice or the thrashing you took last time will pale by comparison.

2. For other commenters, please understand that Herb has yet to provide any verifiable evidence of education, clinical experience, training, etc. to suggest that he is anything other than a two-bit, garden-variety forum troll seeking to create conflict and thereby gain attention. Thus, while he makes statements which SOUND impressive and even based in some sort of professional experience, the clinical validity of those comments has yet to be determined.

3. Since Herb posted this on his own forum, I think it's fair game: Herbert Stein, Man Of Many Faces. Enjoy the reading and draw your own conclusions.

Mathew, It's interesting that you would mention nature v. nurture. I think the problem is a narrow view which tends to rule out the effects of society outside of immediate family on individuals. If your kid makes a D in math, these days you feel you need to take him to a phrink because kids who don't make at least a B in math according to modern thought must have a learning disability. One pshrink might tell you the kid is making bad grades because of how you parent him, another that he's making bad grades because he has adhd and needs drugs, or is bipolar....it doesn't seem like there's much room these days for the phrink that tells you the not everyone does well in math, that lots of people who don't do well in school lead happy lives, that the problem for lots of creative people is the rigid struction of school.

If you and I have different levels of tolerance for people we don't like does that mean one of us is genectically defective...I don't think so, does it mean one of us was psychially abused as a child, possibly but not necessarily. To use a physical analogy, we could both have fever. Mine might come from early leprosy, yours from the common cold, but neither, according to the vast majority of humans would come from demon possesion. Biopsychiatry is the modern incarnation of the "demon possesion" archetype.

I've been reading Bostock's web pages on psychology. I haven't looked at them in some time. While I don't agree with every word he writes, there's some good stuff like this:

"What about psychiatry?

Psychiatry has an abysmal record of abuse of human beings. In electroschock therapy, for example, it hasn't come that far from the days when suffering people were tied up and dunked in ice-cold water. While many medications today are effective in treating a broad range of disorders, they are quite ineffective for many people too. If you actually read the studies, they're not that impressive. The anti-depressants, for example, just don't work for many people. And why should they? Again, depression, like any symptom, has to be situated in a broader context than that of the individual life. We live in a manic society that overvalues productivity. Anyone whose destiny does not accommodate that myth, and it is a myth, is likely to end up depressed. Thirty years ago, countless women were taking Valium to medicate themselves against the pain of exclusion. How come they're taking Prozac today? Anxiety and depression do not just arise in the indvidual's experience and chemistry. They are symptomatic expresssions of anima mundi, the psyche of the world." http://www.soulworks.net/writings/essays/site_002.html

Thanks, Puckett. I appreciate your POV and support. You are indeed a knight in shining armour. I don't think Herb's interesting enough to warrant the kind of attention he has been getting.

Thanks for the this link Sally.

I find it interesting that Emory is taking a multi-faceted look at treating depression, especially considering the ties to GSK, and Nemeroff, [owner of the Lithium patch]. It makes me think of the advertising for Geodon depicting a woman meditating and practicing yoga. what I see happening is a collaboration of perfect pharmaceutical marketing potential: "Be mindful, and take your meds, for a well-rounded quality of life." I had to practice mindful breathing to get through Seroquel withdrawals!

Sally's link:

Meditation or medication?-Of depression, placebos and the Dalai Lama-Emory-Nemeroff.

From the article:

"Although the actual figures are debatable, the placebo effect is remarkably high in the use of antidepressants, particularly in treatment of mild depression. It's no wonder they seem to lose effectiveness after a period. Considering that antidepressants are among the most prescribed drugs in the country, finding a way that more effectively treats depression is a priority in the mental-health field."

Francesca, you're right. 'Nuff said there.

And my sympathies to all who have to deal with behavioral issues with kids that are / may be related to a mental health issue. I have enough trouble keeping up with my fiancee's daughter and she's just an energetic kid. I can't imagine what you all must be going through.

One book that has been useful to us in resolving more challenging discipline issues is Setting Limits with your Strong-Willed Child (http://www.amazon.com/Setting-Limits-Your-Strong-Willed-Child/dp/0761521364/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196398466&sr=8-11). There are some other books like it that might be useful as well.

Hi Matt,

I think you may be on the wrong page. You quoted me except what was written was addressed to “Sally” and not Erica. May I suggest you reread the entire posting from which you quoted me?

I have no issues or differences of opinion with Erica. I find Erica’s narrative both interesting and troubling to me both as a caring parent and support person.

“I was just wondering - if you don't consider the possibility of the nurture over nature argument, how does it benefit you to evaluate your thought processes?” --- Matthew Holford

What makes you think I “don't consider the possibility of the nurture over nature argument?” I've been at this for over 4 decades and I’ve never made any such statement although I’ve indicated in my spouse’s case history this is not the case. The subject of nurture over nature has been discussed numerous times with many of her therapists and it doesn’t exist that is unless one wants to create a fiction. Every child is not abused in some fashion or other by one’s parents, sexually exploited or stressed in marriage by one’s spouse at least not in the case of my spouse, her siblings, me or my brothers where our maturation was simply uneventful. Then again, I can’t speak for anyone else least of all Sally or her friend.

I think it’s great that Sally brought up Cliff Bostock, Ph.D. I’m waiting to read her thoughts as to his dysthymia and suicidal ideations. Maybe instead of her personal attacks on me she’ll redirect her thought processes and knowledge and confirm the blame for his illness is at the door step of his parents or his “partner of 14 years, three cats and the ghosts of two canaries.” (joke).

Like diagnostic labels to which I pay little attention I never asked the therapist what technique he uses in my discussions. What really does that matter, in my opinion, when it is the results that are important to me? We chat. I tell him what I’m thinking, my observations and the stresses and challenges I see facing me in the coming years attending to my spouse’s needs. He offers coping skills, suggestions to better handle my stressors and to come to grip with the fact there is nothing more I can do with our current challenge.

By the way thanks. It nice to know there are some civil and respectful individuals sharing their thoughts on this forum without Pavlovian dogmatic responses or personal attacks to differences of opinion.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

for some perspective, alongside the book list i added somewhere up there...today, my daughter, and super-psychotic--the staff asked me "has she always gotten her way at home? impulsive control disorder? - i'm sorry just shoot me now. i have no answers any more.none.

this is why i can relate to Erica.

and yeah, thank you to puckett.

Herb,

"...May I suggest you reread the entire posting from which you quoted me?.."

Yes, of course you may.

The concept of "trigger events," or "unresolved issues," or whatever, is not complete anathema, then. I think it's a good thing to bear "nurture" in mind as a possibility, not least because, whatever issue a person may have, if one decides that it is beyond influence, then one sends a clear message to the patient that, irrespective of one's perceived support for that patient, they are, to all intents and purposes, on their own in dealing with it. If they have no idea how to solve their stuff, and everybody else has effectively given up on a solution, then that's not a good place to be.

As to the counselling method: I was just vaguely interested. I find some of that stuff a bit "clunky" and unnatural. I think good counsellors are able to take the principles from the prepared scripts and work them into "regular" language. Better for rapport, I think.

Matt

Stephany,

You wrote: "what I see happening is a collaboration of perfect pharmaceutical marketing potential: "Be mindful, and take your meds, for a well-rounded quality of life." This is truly scary. Back in the 90's when I had an excellant yoga instructor, I learned that I could not do yoga while taking zoloft. Not only did it mess up my balance (balancing poses are my forte), but it also made mindfulness impossible. I just didn't feel sane or clean taking it.

I would imagine lots of folks, like Bostock, would agree that mindfulness is not possible when on these drugs. In fact one of the scariest things to me about my family's attempt to force me to take meds is that taking them makes it impossible to do yoga.

So I hope the collaboration you are likely right about doesn't take hold. Meanwhile imagine how many ad execs are married to yoga instructors....

and yes Puckett, thanks.