Really enjoyed reading your article :)
I agree that we should start calling depression 'normal', but also believe it to be an illness, and I don't think my mind will change on this.
I've been suffering from chronic depression on & off for over ten years, and have still not been able to control the symptoms in order to live a 'normal' life - which is my ultimate dream.
Far too many people believe that I'm faking my feelings for sympathy or to be dramatic, which just makes me feel worse, it's almost as if they don't think I want to be happy.
I have lost very important friendships in the past over the depression/mental illness argument and do believe that even though a depressive disorder is fast becoming the norm for people in all countries of the world, it is still debilitating enough to be called an illness. Massive thumbs up in agreement to stop the 'hysterical rush to medicate' though - I honestly think I was better able to control my depression "before" I began taking what I considered to be overly dramatically high dosages of pills.
The last paragraph is beautiful and it raised the first smile of my day - which after 13 hours was really needed :)
Thank you.

There was once a time when depression warranted medication only when severe -- meaning incapacitating. Otherwise, it was assumed that the person would do fine with therapy and/or the array of self-help activities like exercise and the like. In those days we knew that for most people depression is a self-limiting condition. Somewhere along the line the expectation that one should always be happy developed and even sadness became worthy of medicating. I think this is very troubling.

We are in a distinct minority with this view, you know. A lot of people vastly prefer to think of the downs of life as illness beyond their control and without meaning in their lives. And the forces pushing for regarding SSRIs as the equivalent of insulin for depression.

I completely agree and I feel bad for posting here and want to put this disclaimer to anyone reading this, Phillip is a legitimate journalist, not a fringe nutcase like me;).

What is bizarre is the huge amount of people diagnosed with depression who find the idea that depression is a normal, healthy response to certain life events insulting. Here's an article on post traumatic stress disorder that's only on the net in pdf:

http://paulajcaplan.net/files/Vets_are_not_cr.pdf

You're headed towards the idea that all mental illness is, for the individual experiencing it, a normal and understandable response to their life experiences. This doesn't mean treatment for depression or other purported illnesses is never appropriate, but it means that everyone's experience is valid and no one is mentally defective, a good thing but one that makes it harder for people to control and silence others.

Dear Philip,

Try using the term “mood disorder” whether brief or long lasting as I find the term preferable to mental illness for many reasons.

“Besides, there are actually some positive aspects to depression. It's a great source of artistic inspiration--trust me on this one…” --- Philip Dawdy

I find mood disorders to be as unique as is the individual so while you may find “positive aspects to depression” I on the other hand do not. I do not find my spouse’s self-destructive urges while in a state of depression “a great source of artistic inspiration” for her.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Hear hear!

I have to say that I only partially agree. I think that people who experience depression as a result of life events are not mentally ill, and I don't know for sure, but I would venture that this subset is probably the majority by far out of that 20%.

However, I do think that people with recurrent depression that is independent of life events and that is severe enough to impact quality of life (here I'm thinking about one of my best friends who has been hospitalized for suicide attempts and who has been depressed continuously for years, since he was a teenager) could rightfully be considered mentally ill, especially if they can't stay in school, hold down a job, etc. due to their problems. I think that fits your definition well.

How do the subtypes of depression, such as SAD and postnatal depression, fit into this? Are they "normal" or no?

"Besides, there are actually some positive aspects to depression. It's a great source of artistic inspiration.

I agree with that. I think the best poetry, and literature written were by authors that can be described this way, as normal, yet experiencing life and getting it out on paper. Same thing with painters. I've painted some good stuff while feeling the "normal" up and down of life, and it has more emotion and expression that anything else I painted when not suffering so to speak.

In the last few months I've been thinking about this same issue and I came to the same conclusion. Depression is far too prevalent to be considered abnormal and for the majority it comes and goes over someone's life as they react, as they should, to the challenges presented in life. Depression categorized as a mental illness seems to almost make those of us with actual mental illnesses seem to be out on the way side. "I've got a mental illness, I suffer schizophrenia or bipolar, et cetera." "Oh, I'm mentally ill too I've had some depression for the last few months." They're just not the same because feeling different during different times in your life is, and forever should be, the way life should be. I've found some peope in this "depression" category like being able to say they're mentally ill, "I'm crazy." They think it's cool or something. Yet when you listen and dig down deeper into what they're saying it's that they suffer this isolation from the world, this despairing loneliness. An existential dilemma is not the same as a mental illness.

I'm too depressed to provide much "thought" right now but I can say you've got it baby!! I'm depressed now for exactly the kind of reasons you speak of. Right now for me it's simple circumstance. I'll talk to my therapist and walk and eat well. Treatment enough for me. Yes depression is normal....it's so good to hear it from someone else! thank you.

What is bizarre is the huge amount of people diagnosed with depression who find the idea that depression is a normal, healthy response to certain life events insulting.

Excellent point. I don't want to offend anyone, but I know I probably will. First just so you know I've suffered from very severe depression and I've worked with the "mentally ill" as a social worker so I'm not speaking from an uninformed or unlived experience.

I think people don't want to see it as normal because they don't want to take responsibility for it. Working through life's vast issues and pain and disappointments is much harder than popping a pill. Popping a pill is much easier than making radical life altering changes which are sometimes necessary. Popping a pill is easier than staring our pain in the face and profoundly accepting that life is difficult. But I think that if we do choose to do these things there is sooo much more hope than if we believe it is a genetically determined, chemical imbalance, medical disease that we have no control over whatsoever. It's just a scarier journey to take the road that says we must work to heal but it is so much more empowering.

The sad thing is that depression is not an illness UNTIL you start to medicate it and then you become ill from the medications and it leads to a worsening of depression. I venture to say that almost all "intractable depression" is treated depression and sufferers have serious "rebound" mood disorders when they become dose tolerant or try to withdraw. So unfortunately at this point we have created a whole universe of patients with "abnormal" iatragenic (treatment induced) depression that could properly be called an illness. What a bitter irony that is.

I'm not so sure thinking of depression as "normal" is the answer here. I think we've gone to far with treatments to go back now and say people are normal for experiencing feelings. I believe we have gotten so far away from what is and isn't a true mental illness we now have to call depression a "right" we should all have. No one is allowed to be depressed anymore. I know of a person who lost a loved one recently. She had never saw a mental health professional prior to this event. She went thinking the psychiartist would talk to her about her loss and help her though the hard time. Instead she left her first appointment with a prescription which she quickly filled and within a month she is now having ECT. Before she went to a doctor she knew what she was feeling was "normal". She quickly lost sight of "normal" and is now considered severly mentally ill. It just seems to me, she should have been givin the "right" to be depressed. She was experiencing natural human emotions. Emotions we are no longer able to experience because they are considered wrong.

Well, Jane, no offense, but going to a psychiatrist instead of a therapist was your friend's first mistake. Why didn't she try a grief counselor?

Believe it or not, most people think they are going to a therapist when they first see a shirk. Most people are completely unware pdocs only prescribe meds. Really, people have no idea what they role of the shirk is. Just ask someone who has never seen one what the role of a shrink is. The general population has no idea.

It seems to me that most people agree on the extreme ends of the spectrum. Someone who is briefly deeply unhappy because of horrible life events does not have an illness. On the other hand, someone who suddenly deteriorates to the point where they cannot sleep, eat, speak, interact, get out of bed, etc, at all, clearly does have an illness. Are you really claiming that someone like this is not ill? That NOBODY really has an illness of major depression?

Another article along the same lines...

http://3quarksdaily.blogs.com/3quarksdaily/2007/08/selected-minor-.html

Jesse, It's pretty unusual for someone to "suddenly deteriorate to the point where they cannot sleep, eat, speak, interact, get out of bed, etc, at all." If this happens, there's either a real underlying medical problem, i.e. cancer or a real psychological stressor. If such situation is brought on by some event that to the outsider doesn't seem to merit such a reaction, that does not mean compassion is not in order. But it does mean that if there's no underlying medical condition, it's not a medical illness.

Virtually no one diagnosed with depression has such a severe experience. I remember having a friend who explained she knew she was clinically depressed because she couldn't bring herself to paint her toenails. She was very wrong about the diagnosis of depression.

"they cannot sleep, eat, speak, interact, get out of bed, etc"

who is enabling them?

Ever see the 600 pound people?

Dear Gianna,

“I don't want to offend anyone…I've suffered from very severe depression and I've worked with the "mentally ill" as a social worker so I'm not speaking from an uninformed or unlived experience…I think people don't want to see it as normal because they don't want to take responsibility for it.” --- Gianna

You have not offended me and I do appreciate when you speak from the first person singular and your own experiences. When you go astray and speak about “people” then I believe you are treading in waters lacking understanding and real awareness and generalizing the experiences of others.

I don’t know of what “people” you refer to but in my spouse’s case history there were none of the following of which you speak:

“Working through life's vast issues and pain and disappointments is much harder than popping a pill. Popping a pill is much easier than making radical life altering changes which are sometimes necessary. Popping a pill is easier than staring our pain in the face and profoundly accepting that life is difficult.” --- Gianna

My spouse spent years in therapy and continues to this day and the conclusion is nothing you refer to in the above quote even remotely relates to her situation or experiences although 8 suicide attempts in her case when she is otherwise physically healthy prompts me to believe that severe depression of this nature goes against nature’s own laws of self-preservation and does not necessarily have to do with “Working through life’s vast issues and pain and disappointments.”

Since my spouse is not the only one to state to me about not having any issues to account for one’s major depressive episodes and the ineffectiveness of talk therapy for those same individuals would lead me to believe there are other factors to be accounted for.

Dear Sally,

“Jesse, It's pretty unusual for someone to "suddenly deteriorate to the point where they cannot sleep, eat, speak, interact, get out of bed, etc, at all." If this happens, there's either a real underlying medical problem, i.e. cancer or a real psychological stressor.” --- Sally

Incidentally, I’ve personally known of a number of individuals now deceased having “a real underlying medical problem, i.e. cancer…” including both my parents and none exhibited any depression and yet I’ve also known my spouse to “suddenly deteriorate” but in her case it leads rapidly to suicidal ideations and she does not have “i.e. cancer or a real psychological stressor” or any need for her “Working through life’s vast issues and pain and disappointments.” She suffers from MDD and when the depression surfaces there are no extraneous issues to account for her relapses.

At this point I would again like to quote you as your statement seems most appropriate to this discussion

“I'm just curious, is there any science to support these claims?” --- Sally

May I also suggest in response to your question that you begin to consider looking, researching and reading in circles other than which you’ve become accustomed.

Or do most all of your statements and wild assumptions come under the heading of?

“Phillip is a legitimate journalist, not a fringe nutcase like me;).” --- Sally

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

meridith- that was just a very cold statement to make. I know of a lot of people who do not understand the difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist or therapist. It is easy when you are in a hurt and vulnerable state to be taken advantage of by a psychiatrist with their own motivations and views of all sadness being a disease.
I feel for this lady that her grief was medicalized and medicated. since she probably had no need for an antidepressant it is no wonder she became actually ill after taking one. and with not knowing enough to know the difference between when one should be seeing a therapist (which may people think psyche docs are who you go to for therapy) and seeing a psychiatrist, its very easy for people to be manipulated into believing they have a mental illness when really they are just trying to cope with the hard parts of life.

if only someone who had known better, who had known the difference could have counciled her on how to find the correct sort of help... but not all of us are fortunate enough to have friends who are wise to the world of psychology and psychiatry.

As for depression not being a mental illness, well it depends on how psyche docs are diagnosing depression. If you are sad and upset for some number of months BUT there are life circumstances that are causing this NORMAL reaction, then no I don't think it is a mental illness. But psychiatrists are in it for the money and/or indoctrinated to believe almost anything other than a generaly flat affect towards life is an illness. So of course they diagnose any normal down mood as an illness instead of just admitting its not an illness and that you just need therapy and some support from family and friends and maybe to change some things in your life.

I agree that the majority of that 20% of people who are considered "depressed" in this country are probably just people who haven't learned or accepted the facts of life that sometimes it sucks, sometimes its hard and sometimes you are going to be down in the dumps. Its not like they teach this stuff in school. (they should: life coping skills 101 anyone?)

But to say that depression is not a mental illness is not correct. Its better to say that depression as it is being diagnosed these days in our counry is not confined to those with an actual mental illness.

For me I have had enough problems with "depression" as a problem brought on by life being a bitch, and DEPRESSION brought on by absolutely nothing other than something within my brain/body being out of whack. I have been seriously depressed for months at a time, at times when all lifes circumstances where great: I had plenty of money, plenty of friends, plenty of free time etc.... yet I was suicidal and no matter what I told myself about how there was no reason for this, it made no difference. and I have been "depressed" for months at a time when there was a reason, such as when my little sister died. For me it is a pretty obvious difference between the big D and the little "d". But for someone who has never experienced the big D then I could see how they could get confused.
As sick as it sounds, after my little sister died and the "depression" that followed that, I was somehow relieved. I finaly had a very obvious reason for having feelings as horrible as I had been having for most of my life without any real life reason.

In my mind if your depression is something that even the death of a loved one seems like a bearable experience next to, then yeah your depression is the real deal. The reason the grief that followed the loss of my sister seemed more bearable than the Depressions I had had in the past was because THERE WAS A REASON. Therefor there was actually something identifiable to be attributing the sadness to. I somehow felt less lost, and at least it was something I could explain and share with others. It was a normal human experience and therefor I could relate to others.

When you are dealing with actual clinical depression, an actual mental illness, you can not relate to others. It is an impossible experience to share because it IS NOT NORMAL and "normal people" who have not experienced it can only relate by thinking and speaking about normal depression and sadness related to life events....and ask you WHY you feel this way, when you say there is no reason,you get a blank stare and a shrug.

I just wish Pdocs weren't so irresponsible and didn't diagnose normal people dealing with normal reactions as mentaly ill and then try to medicate the humanity out of them. They should refer the 10 to 18% of people who are not really depressed to the right sort of treatment aka therapy... instead of trying to convince us all that we are mentaly ill. I don't know if it monocular vision, stupidity, greed or something else that motivates psyche docs to put normal healthy people on drugs, all I know is that it is wrong and a lot of people have ended up screwed over with wieght gain adverse reactions and the like thanks to this epidemic of accepted medical malpractice.

Thanks for writing this article, I think it brings up some important points but I don't wholey agree with your saying that depression shouldn't be considered an mental illness...just that your right that if the noraml down periods of life are going to continue to be diagnosed as depression that the diagnosis itself looses meaning.

http://ucantalktome.blogspot.com/

I believe almost everyone gets depressed at some time in their life and medications doesn't work unless the dosage is increased. How can it, if your brain adjusts to it. I don't believe the levels of seratonin stay where they should be unless dosages are increased and medications are changed. I am more apt to believe someone had a "nervous breakdown" and needs some down time and someone to talk to rather than meds.

I think it's a mistake to lump all depressions together and question whether they are a "mental illness" or not. Some are. Some aren't. Post partum depression, for example, certainly seems to be a biological illness.

For myself, depressions have been a wake up call and, in recovering, I've been made stronger and have a clearer idea of who I am and what I want. Gruesome as they were, I'm glad I went through the experience. And I agree with Philip -- they can be creative times.

Herb, you're creepy. Please don't post your nasty messages and follow them with "warmly." You're not warm. You're judgemental and preachy. I'm not the only one in this forum who questions the role you play in "managing" your wife. Here's a thought: maybe your wife would like to speak for herself here.

Dear Francesca,

Is the best argument to any discussion that you present to attack and name call? Is “creepy” really necessary to oppose my position or differences of opinion?

Unlike you I have no need to do the same in kind and unlike you I share from personal experiences, research, knowledge and the knowledge shared with me by others as a former trained DBSA support group facilitator for a number of years.

“Please don't post your nasty messages and follow them with "warmly." --- Francesca Allan

Once again, unlike you and your writings I do not tell anyone what he/she or they should or should not do nor did I write “nasty messages.” I cannot account for one’s inability to comprehend differences of opinion or to take objection with my quoting the writings of others. I am not a licensed health care professional and not qualified to give advice so instead through my training I share my experiences and knowledge and unlike your presentations I don’t give advice. Nor do I tell you or anyone what to write or what not to write. I use the word warmly simply as a respectful courtesy in that I may oppose or have differences of opinions with individuals but I hold nothing personal against the individual(s) as you obviously exhibit in your writings, in my opinion, to anyone who differs with your thoughts, opinions and generalizations.

“You're not warm.” --- Francesca Allan

Hereto I can not only easily disagree with another of your inaccurate statements but factually report, you’re wrong simply because and using your form of logic and reasoning, many others not only consider me warm but extremely caring, sensitive and supportive.

“I'm not the only one in this forum who questions the role you play in "managing" your wife. Here's a thought: maybe your wife would like to speak for herself here.” --- Francesca Allan

You are now repeating yourself. Your statement was answered previously by me but obviously, in my opinion, you too would rather comfortably dwell in your preconceived notions than venture forth obtaining information and facts outside your comfortable and accustomed circles.

An especially warm salutation to you as I hold no ill feelings toward you or others while I most certainly disagree and take exception to your reasoning and thought processes as exhibited in many of your statements.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

I have to agree with Francesca about Herb. Statements like this just make me wonder: "there are no extraneous issues to account for her relapses." I'd like to hear Herb say that with a straight face after telling us exactly what drugs she's been on and for how long. I think I'd bet money that his wife is a classic case of iatragenesis and if she's still on drugs after VNS the days when she had her "own" depression are long gone. She's probably been suffering from drug (and now device) induced problems for years and it's time Herb recognized it. As for what triggered suffering in the first place I'm just wondering how many controlling, narcissistic people she's had in her life.

True depression isn't just a feeling or an opinion - true depression is incapacitating. True depressions severely effects the lives of those who have it and those around them. I am NOT depressed. I successfully get out of bed every morning, shower, get dressed, primp, eat, and go to work. A truly depressed person would have a hard time completing such simple tasks. Yet, when I visited a therapist a few years ago for phobia/OCD problems, I was diagnosed with depression. Why? Because I'm a realist. The fact that I am able to function completely normally apparently means nothing in my diagnosis.

While I don't agree that all "depression" should be considered normal, I do believe the criteria one has to meet to qualify as "depressed" these days is pretty broad. Helplessness, hopelessness, restlessness, worthlessness, agitation, boredom, apathy, distraction...these are all symptoms of being alive and self-actualized. Sometimes, things are hopeless. Sometimes, people are worthless. Most of the time, life isn't worth the trouble. Labeling the acknowledgment of these facts as "depression" only gives false hope to those who want to believe things can get better.

There is a broad spectrum and that is showing up here in comments. Who said "coping skills 101"? that's a great point. And Stephanie talked about false hope.

I've learned to never lose hope when things are the worst, and that is with regard to my 19 yr. old daughter. I had a doctor tell me that I "had false hope", and she heard him say that. One never can give up hope. It's all we have. Sure things may not change, but things do get better. Maybe not perfect, but that's when at least for me, I bring down to the level of being grateful for my life and anyone else's, and I speak with regard to seeing someone totally drop into an abyss. There is where hope needs to hang on, even if it's for the person suffering. I think as far as depression goes, of course like anything else there are severe cases, and the general public need not be medicated for life's happenings. Especially because it's hard to find people writing anywhere that medications are the end all be all. I'm starting to read the opposite, people are coming here and writing how they are managing lives and feeling better off medications. Seriously, when I was feeling like it was hopeless with my daughter--it was that doctor saying "false hope, poor prognosis" that pissed me off enough to go against him in court and prevent state hospitalization. Life isn't perfect, but at least she wasn't locked up as a forgotten soul.

Herb,

I've thoroughly reviewed the journal you link to from your web site: http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/bps/inpress

At your suggestion seen below:

“I'm just curious, is there any science to support these claims?” --- Sally

May I also suggest in response to your question that you begin to consider looking, researching and reading in circles other than which you’ve become accustomed."

The Journal of Biological Psychiatry that you link to has no science in it to support these claims...none...what does that tell you? I'm with Sara in wondering with regards to your spouse "As for what triggered suffering in the first place I'm just wondering how many controlling, narcissistic people she's had in her life."

Temperately,

Sally

I can attest to feeling better off all medications and psychiartic treatments. It took almost 2 years of drug withdrawls from going off them cold turkey to now see that I gave a lot of false hope to the treatments. The medications changed me while on them. The change is hard to explain as they changed me in a way that made all the depressive symptoms really pronounced while I was on them. I was completely unaware of the change which is so amasing. The doctors just saw extreme depressive symptoms that were getting worse. They never attributed it to the medications. While I was taking medications my depression became so severe I would never be able to explain just how disabling depression can be. I would have never guessed it was the medication causing (or pronouncing) my symptoms. And if anyone would have suggested it was the medications I would have told them they didn't know what they were talking about. I would have told them just what my doctors had told me, that I needed the medications to stay alive. That without medications I wouldn't be able to function. A few months after going off the medications my depression changed, I was still depressed, and at first suicidal, and there were times I didn't think I was going to make it. My mind would go back to wanting to believe I needed the medications. I went through some real struggles with myself of whether I should go back to the medication or not. As my mind was saying "go back on medications", another part of me was saying, "but you feel so different not on them". I really wish I could communicate what that change was, but I can't. After a few months, I started feeling this feeling that I coming alive. To be honest most the time I didn't even realize how shitty I felt until a day would come here and there where I felt really really good and clear headed. It was like I had been in a trance or something. Those alive feelings allowed me to stick things out and go with the no medications and now today, I feel so alive I can't explain it. I ask myself all the time "what happened?", "where did my life go?". Medications pronounced every depressive symptom I ever had and did it in a way I was unaware of it. I wanted to believe for so long it wasn't the medication, that it was something else. Medications were a false hope and false treatment. As a society we really have to take a look at the role of medications in our lives. It makes no sense to keep making up different illnesses (or words) like "treatment resistant depressions" to justify why medications aren't working and to justify the need for a different medication or a different treatment, especially when its the medication causing the symptoms. I believe the type of depression I had while on medication was a "mental illness". I had some unbelieveable symptoms of depression while taking the medications. I was sick. But now, not being on any medications, I in no way have a "mental illness".

Dear Sara,

I would have to believe based upon your agreeing with Francesca and the writings of several of your compatriots that I’ve come to read that you all seem schooled in the same thought patterns.

Better than a “straight face” I’ll reply that there is evidence of a paternal history on Joyce’s side of the family going back several generations that we are aware of exhibiting mood disorders. The fact that her father and three of four of his offspring exhibited mood disorders and the fact that three of the offspring were diagnosed with mood disorders and one of the younger children is already deceased apparently do not count in your schooling either.

The fact that I’ve empirically observed and maintained four decades worth of notes and observations of my spouse’s mood states and reactions to treatment regimens and the lack thereof I would guess from your schooling this also does not count but instead hearsay, innuendo, name calling and attributions of my character more properly are also suited to your schooling, rationale, agenda and faulty reasoning.

The fact that during 4 decades my spouse has withdrawn numerous times from all medications and treatments without any favorable response further debunks your hearsay.

I would also hope that you don’t bet money on a regular basis as your ill conceived thought of “classic case of iatragenesis” is as far a field as your other statements and that of some of your esteemed associates.

Over these past 8 years my spouse was free of all psychotropic medications and continuously depression free for 3 years and in the 5 years recently past she is on the fewest psychotropic medications than has been her experiences in the prior 36 years and almost continuously depression free. So not only would that shoot down your assumptions it also overlooks the fact that unlike several of your compatriots my experiences as a support person and care giver are publicly shared including factual detailed treatment regimens and histories but then again you too apparently do not go beyond your circle of comfort and similar thoughts and readings and simply shoot from the hip as if you know what it is you’re talking about.

I’ll further attempt to clarify and inform you of additional shortcomings in your knowledge that the VNS Therapy is FDA labeled as an adjunctive therapy.

You and your compatriots tend to allude to experiences of abuse varying in nature. My spouse has not experienced any of your alluded to allegations nor “controlling, narcissistic people she's had in her life.” Our family is absent of such characters and I wonder who if anyone controls who. Fortunately too, we’ve also not had to resort to looking to individuals like you based upon your writings and what would appear to me to be a lack of qualified education, certification and licensing in the field of Psychiatry and/or Psychology for guidance or direction.

It fascinates me knowing the numerous ramifications as well as the pain and suffering and the potential life threatening disorder my spouse and others endure and the extreme difficulty in trying to treat this unique population of patients, who like my wife are or were treatment resistant. Along comes you and you’re simplistic know-it-all posting in my opinion and the drivel you present to me as the seeming answer. Well I thank you for your thoughts but I prefer to rely upon the knowledge and thoughts of a number of trusted and licensed professionals and researchers who have helped us achieve a reasonable quality of life for Joyce and me.

Had you asked questions to gain insight such as has Joyce ever tried abstaining from medications or has tried such and such a treatment option etc I would place more credence and validity to your thoughts. You too apparently climb the proverbial 42nd Street soap box and preach your dogma as if you have the answers. Then again, maybe you do for yourself. I’ll reply to you also that I’ve not repented and amazingly I’m still here and so too my spouse who is in remission and depression free despite your mind follies.

There are other neurological disorders such as Parkinson Disease also lacking definitive answers and testing. Similarly to MDD, Parkinson diagnosis relies upon observations and evaluations of symptomology and a trial and error approach to treating. Do you also attribute this disorder to “iatrogenesis” or “controlling, narcissistic people” or medications too?

Give me a break and talk about yourself, something I hope you would have knowledge of, and not about those things you don’t even have the slightest clue about least of all about my spouse and me. I also remind you of the old adage about the blind leading the blind.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Herb, Sally's not blind. I believe that what she's referring to is that maybe YOU are the controller. I must say that, for myself, the more you post, the more it seems to be so. It's not up to the "outsiders" to declare that "everything's fine."

Where is Joyce? Does she have a voice? I was willing to believe you were the lovable old codger for a while but now I see your relationship as sick. Prove me wrong, please.

I read a little bit about you and I understand you have a financial interest in VNS? Is that true? How's that going?

Stephany, you nailed it: One never can give up hope. It's all we have.

Jane, that is a really good post about yourself and medications, thank you.

Francesca, we will never give up hope for ourselves or others, therefore we are united here, as one voice. [because pain and suffering knows no boundaries].

Many voices, are a choir.

Francesca, there is a reason you are here. Period. With that in mind-- write your story. That's the hard part. Use my blog if you need to--others opinion do not define you.

You define who you are. [Not any other commenter. ] I appreciate you wanting freedom from medication, hospitals and suffering.--you deserve that, and as a human being reserve it--

You really are not alone, and though it may feel that way, take the high road.

It's peaceful there.

Write to me.--Stephany--soulful sepulcher.

One word: validate.

Everyone writing here needs it. That is part of the human "condition".

Each day, we wake up. We have our own worries, life stories, dread, and victories.

~
Every person here reading and writing --are all the same. The pain, the suffering, fear, all of it.--we know it don't we.[?]

When tears are shed, we feel it run down our face. So, with that as a thought-- we all cry.

For each other. Together.
~
Each life story matters so much.

Jane, thank you for sharing your story. It was incredibly moving and I hope it gives a lot of hope to the readers of this blog who are trying to free themselves from the psychiatric paradigms that are so pervasive and insidious in our culture. For myself I am inspired by all of you who are trying to come off drugs or have already done so. You give me so much hope. If only my beloved daughter could have walked the same path in time.

"You give me so much hope.[Jane]. If only my beloved daughter could have walked the same path in time."-Sara.

I'm sorry,re: Sara,"your beloved daughter."

I am grateful for the people here that have much to say, and need to say more.

Thanks, Stephany, for your empathy and wisdom. Yes---validate, listen, bear witness and take the high road. When you read Stephany's blog or her comments elsewhere, her humanity always shines through, even when she "rants," questions or challenges. She does not attack, presume or judge and she's still outspoken and honest. We need to share our stories, experiences and perspectives and per the Dalai Lama, follow the three R’s:

Respect for self,
Respect for others,
and Responsibility for all your actions.

Here are 2 of my favorite quotes which speak to how we communicate, whether it's in cyberspace or real space:

"I appreciate people who are civil, whether they mean it or not. I think: Be civil. Do not cherish your opinion over my feelings. There's a vanity to candor that isn't really worth it. Be kind."
Richard Greenberg, NY Times Magazine, 03-26-2006

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."
Plato (427 BC - 347 BC)

Jane, thank you very much for sharing your story. I can identify very closely with what you went through. I was reading what you wrote, thinking, wow...this seems so very familiar. I used to cling so tightly to the "mental illness" label, and now, years later, I don't identify with that label whatsoever. Thank goodness!

At first I laughed out loud at this entry, then realized you were serious. Then I became frightened.

katielou said "For me it is a pretty obvious difference between the big D and the little "d". But for someone who has never experienced the big D then I could see how they could get confused."

I am 52 years old. I have experienced "little d" many, many times in my life. I too learned during those times that, however painful, what I was experiencing was "little d", situational depression, and that, yes, time would eventually cause "little d" to pass.

But I have suffered from dysthmia, low grade depression, since childhood, with occasional bouts of major depression. I suffered from dysthmia before it had a name, before anybody had heard of it. I just know that at some point I realized that my "normal" state was not the same as my family and friends.

I have been in treatment with therapists since my twenties. Talk therapy helps mostly in being able to open up to someone who will listen and help you work through your problems. Some therapists were good and some were atrociously bad. The few good therapists actually worked, [i]with[/i] me , using various techniques, and though I have worked very hard at overcoming my "troubles", I still only receive a temporary break from the deep depression and/or my "normal" state of dysthmia.

I worked full-time from 1973 until 2002, including working several part-time jobs in addition to my full-time jobs. Up through 2002, my episodes with severe depression were few, but the low-grade depression was aways there.

In 2002, I slid down into the world of "severe clinical depression, recurrent." It has been five years now of being on meds, switching around meds, being off meds, back on, all without any respite. Hopelessness, despair, severe emotional pain are my daily companions. I have no appetite and I have no desire to do anything, including bathing. There are some days, sometimes two in a row, where I come out into the light and world of the living, but no matter how I fight it, I quickly slide back down the hill quickly into despair.

By starting a "campaign" declaring that depression is no longer a mental illness, you will be taking one stigma away and replacing with another, older stigma, the stigma of depression being a character weakness rather than an illness. We who suffer already deal with the world view (as expressed by many above) that depression is a personal weakness that can be cured by "pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps." This type of campaign will help reaffirm to the world that we who suffer from clinical depression are lazy, whining, weak people with character flaws, rather than people suffering from a severe, life-threatening illness.

Are there too many people being incorrectly diagnosed with clinical depression? Yes. Are there too many people being incorrectly diagnosed with bipolar? Yes. Are there too many people diagnosing themselves as having PTSD? You bet.

But take a walk in my shoes, in the shoes of others who are completely disabled by deep, unrelenting depression, before you continue this discussion. Your blog reaches an enormous amount of people, and look how many have quickly come forward to back you in your assertions. It is truly frightening.

"It has been five years now of being on meds, switching around meds, being off meds, back on, all without any respite. Hopelessness, despair, severe emotional pain are my daily companions. I have no appetite and I have no desire to do anything, including bathing. There are some days, sometimes two in a row, where I come out into the light and world of the living, but no matter how I fight it, I quickly slide back down the hill quickly into despair."

I'm sorry but rocketdog needs to learn a lot more about withdrawal and how very difficult and prolonged it is. At no point are any of us saying that going off meds pure and simple is the answer to depression -- we are just saying that going on meds makes it worse. Unfortunately once on, even for a short time, one's problems almost always expand exponentially, as so many commenters here are attesting to whether they like to admit it or not. Rebound effects can hit months after going off even a short round of antidepressants or some other psych drug, in fact three to six months after discontinuation is a very typical time frame and can be one of the worst phases of withdrawal, and a point at which doctors tell you you have "relapse" and you must go back on. It takes incredible resolve and allowing a LOT of time for healing to get off drugs for good and one pretty much has to resolve to exclude most medical professionals from the process because almost none of them understand it. The STAR*D study demonstrated that the MORE times someone stopped and started an antidepressant or changed to a new one the LESS chance he/she ever had of achieving lasting remission of symptoms. Of course that isn't how it was written up but that's what the evidence said.

Herb does mention an interesting disease that is somewhat analagous to purported mental illness, Parkinson's Disease. Parkinson's Disease, like "mental" illness, cannot be diagnosed with a lab test, but unlike "mental illness" Parkinson's has measurable symptoms:

http://www.umm.edu/parkinsons/signs.htm

Like "mental illness" Parkinsons can be wrongly diagnosed.

Unhappiness as a symptom of illness is controversial. Rocketdog mentions always having had dysthemia, i.e. being an unhappy person. There is no one mood everyone is supposed to be in all of the time and no one temperament that is "normal."

To say that despair is not a "medical" disease is not to say it's not a problem. It's just to say that pills and shots aren't going to help much in the long run, sort of like drinking, a more common drug therapy. When you sober up the problems are still there and eventually if you keep drinking and not dealing with the problems that made you drunk in the first place the alcohol itself will destroy you. Psych drugs are the same but despair is not a weakness or a character flaw.

What Rocketdog said. And the "psychosis" in major depression is shorthand for unrelenting suicidal ideation. Y'all need to get out more.

I feel kind of mixed about this issue. I don't really care too much if depression is considered a mental illness or not. I don't know what caused my early problems with depression. Part of it was most likely situational, part it is probably faulty wiring. All I know is it was bad. I still can't believe I got to the point where I didn't bathe for days and walked around the dog shit on my carpet (and that was while I was on my cocktail of psych meds). I went from a functional depression (off medication) to being almost completely nonfunctional (on medication). That's when the psychiatrist began discussing ECT as a last resort. I refused, so he increased my meds, and I went bat shit crazy. If I wasn't psychotic, I was damn close.

I do think that my diagnosis of recurrent major depression made me more despondent. I'm sure that my psychiatrist telling me I had a chronic illness (that had no cure) didn't exactly ease my depression. Putting me in a psych hospital and treating me like a child, likewise made me feel more helpless. The last thing someone with depression needs is to feel more helpless.

Ultimately what helped, in my case was going off medication, and finding a therapist who believed I could get better. I'm not saying this is what others should do. It may not be. I still have problems with depression, but it has never come close to the despair I was in while under psychiatric care. How much of my problems with depression are within my control? That's a question I'm not sure I know the answer to. I do know what can make it worse (meds, psychiatrists, lack of sleep, isolating myself, Etoh, etc). So, I do try and avoid the things I know don't help.

Of course unrelenting suicidal ideation should be relieved, still, if suicide is a symptom of an illness as opposed to an expression of despair (an emotional condition which will not be dispelled with medical treatment as evidenced by the failure of treatments for Rocketdog's condition), anyway, if suicide is a symptom of a disease why don't we treat Palestine as a nation afflicted with a disease, with epidemic proportions of mental illness and send psychicatrists, therapists, and medication over to treat the potential suicide bombers - oh wait, that is exactly how we treat the captured suspected suicide bombers at Quantanamo, it's just that the "therapy" and drug treatment the prisoners there recieve is called "torture," but it's essentially the same treatment being doled out by the same group of people. Wonder if that is significant.

"Rocketdog mentions always having had dysthemia, i.e. being an unhappy person."

No, that is not what it means. I will not attempt to address that comment except to say that it is, again, a sign that chronic low-grade depression and severe, unrelenting depression are conditions that can only be understood if you have experienced them.

My post had nothing to do with discussing medication - I only mentioned it in passing. It was addressing the idea proposed that depression should be downgraded to a normal part of life, and the reasons why that would be devastating to those people who suffer from "true" depression.

Thanks, flawedplan, for understanding what I attempted to explain.

Another article that lends credence (well, sort of) to the idea that depression ignites creativity.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2007-10-30T130229Z_01_L30675394_RTRUKOC_0_US-MARX-BOILS.xml

Dear Sally,

Like much of the dogma you seem to post, in my opinion, and the inaccuracies and generalizations of many of your statements I’ll differ with you once again. The people’s you refer to are improperly labeled by you and others “suicide bombers.”

In fact your association of these “homicide bombers” with those suffering and experiencing serious long-term episodes of depression and suicidal ideas is once again far a field.

“Of course unrelenting suicidal ideation should be relieved” --- Sally

A wonderful statement I would agree. And just how would you accomplish this feat in view of the fact you seem bitter, argumentative, hostile and confrontational to anyone’s sharing what they’ve deemed beneficial to achieve their own wellness other than what you tell everyone is the right way?

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Herb, whatever.

Sally, please don't reply to him. It's time for Herb to move on. He's disrupted this forum enough.

Rocketdog, I can only speak for myself, but I don't see it as "downgrading" at all. Saying that depression is "normal" doesn't make it any less painful to endure, or any less important to make better, it just means that it is a normal human experience.


I think it is very important for sufferers to understand that, because if they believe that they are "ill" and that they'll never get better -- they won't ever get better. Hope is all we have, and when someone (like a psychiatrist) takes that away -- if someone wasn't feeling total despair before, they truly will be at that point.


I am speaking from my own experience. I suffered for 8 years. In that time I had over 30 hospitalizations, countless meds, almost every diagnosis in the book, ECT (and yes, brain damage from that), and at least 7 suicide attempts. Every drop of hope had been drained from me by the "mental health" community.


It was when I rejected the meds and the diagnoses, and found a therapist who believed that I could (and would) get better -- that I got better. He helped to restore my hope, and from that point, recovery was imminent. It only took 10 months to undo 8 years of damage done by the psychiatric community (and really a whole lifetime worth of damage done to me by others and myself.) I didn't suddenly pull myself up by my bootstraps. I had deep depression that was made worse by taking meds and letting other people take away any shred of hope I might have had left. I reclaimed my hope and my life.


It took a long time to realize that the "treatment" was way worse than the "disease".

Dear Francesca,

In this techno-savvy computer age and as a novice I’ve come to learn various little tidbits of information. One of those pieces of information I’ve come across is the term “sock puppet”.

When used in the context of message forums I believe it relates to two characters (screen names) being presented by a single individual communicating with one another.

I’m curious when I disagree with something posted by “Sally” you immediately respond. Are “Sally” and “Francesca Allan” two screen names being used by one individual?

“It's time for Herb to move on. He's disrupted this forum enough.” --- Francesca Allan

Do my differences of opinion and statement of facts also engender rage, bitterness and hostilities in you too? Are the best arguments you offer to my points of view being told I’m “delusional” or controlling of my spouse or “It's time for Herb to move on. He's disrupted this forum enough.” Is this a form of one’s training to deal with someone who disagrees with you?

While I make an effort to share my personal experiences and knowledge relating to the subject matter from my perspective without generalizations or attempting to give any advice, several of you folks demonstrate just the opposite.

I do not read all the participants to this form being in agreement with the “Sally’s” or “Francesca Allan’s” nor do I find their contributions disruptive or demeaning. Actually, I find their experiences interesting as well as informative.

Maybe you guys should consider another approach to these discussions like addressing the issues rather than exhibiting hostilities to the participants or addressing my thoughts that “homicide bombers” have no relationship to this topic or MDD.

Then again, maybe Sally would address my contrarian thoughts.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Very interesting you would insinuate others are posting under different names. Interesting also how you point out how a novice at computers can find information on the internet. A google search brings up quite a bit of information, just on you Herb. You truely are a many of many faces who sees no harm in protraying yourseld as an 11 year old who's considering ECT, or maybe your'll be a medical doctor today, or the ever ending caregiver to your wife? Whatever one finds in their search, you appear to get some sort of high on harrassing women who have qustioned Psychiatric treatments. Please Herb, go back to making money for VNS and leave us alone. The internet is a huge place, you should be able to find others willing to listen to what a great and caring person you are. I thinks its safe to say many of us here are sick of your antics!

Herb, I can honestly state that my real name is Francesca Allan and that I only post under that name. The reason why Sally and I both tend to respond to your pompous contributions, even when they are addressed to one of us and not the other, is because we both find you a relentless and shrill bore. And, just so you know, you are by far the most hostile poster here. As even you could probably figure out by now, you're not welcome here. There are plenty of "I like controlling my wife" websites. Have fun.

Why is everyone being so mean to HERB? what did he do to deserve such attacks?

You know despite the fact that there are probably many more cases of people withOUT actual clinical depression getting treated for depression and therefor being made even more ill by taking a medicine they did not need in the first place, that doesn't mean there are not people who do actually have real depression and that depression is not actually an illness. It is just an illness that is diagnosed incorrectly in far to many people.

Some people DO actually benefit and get better form treatment with antidepressnt medications. Just because you, sally and the others who are picking on herb for sharing his story about his wife being helped by antidepressant medications... have gotten worse from these meds and not better, that does not mean you should go and be rude and mean to a guy who is just happy to see that there are medications that can help his wife function.

Philip- Has you website been brining in a lot of antipsychiatry overboard cases lately because that's how it sounds from these comments and how Herb has been being treated. It's too bad if that's the case because I think you are far from being overboard in your reporting.

Honestly I understand both sides of the argument. I have had multiple bad reactions to psyche meds, but then I have also had good results from the right type of psyche meds. I know what it is like to feel pissed at and scammed by the field of psychiatry due to having my "mental illness" made worse by antidepressant drugs (ADs). But I also know that ADs have helped a lot of people (just nowhere near as many as have actually taken them). They just aren't the meds for me... and i do tend to warn people who are not SEVERLY depressed to avoid them and try things such as amino acids and supplements first because they are safer and much less likely to make you go even more out of your mind. But hey, if they did try an AD and it helped them and they told me about it, I wouldn't turn around and act like an ass towards them because the med worked for them when it didn't work for me.

Sorry you've been being attacked herb. unless of course you are some sort of spook for the big pharma companies trying to brainwash us all into poping prozac like candy ;)

Francesca wrote: "And, just so you know, you are by far the most hostile poster here. As even you could probably figure out by now, you're not welcome here. There are plenty of "I like controlling my wife" websites. Have fun."

Sorry, Francesca, Sally & others, but that's like the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. I notice that you seem to discredit other people's experiences if they're not in synch with your own.

Sally, your analogy "if suicide is a symptom of a disease why don't we treat Palestine as a nation afflicted with a disease, with epidemic proportions of mental illness and send psychicatrists, therapists, and medication over to treat the potential suicide bombers..." is quite a stretch and struck me as a very incendiary post.

Bottom line---> meds can indeed make things much worse for many people but for others, meds can be live-saving and life-enhancing. Whether it's Stephany, Liz Spikol, Herb's wife, William Styron, Mike Wallace, Tipper Gore or me, we have benefited from medication, esp when it's prescribed at the lowest dose necessary, monitored carefully by us and a good pdoc and combined with talk therapy. It's also important to be as informed as possible and have some HEALTHY skepticism.

I've been on Zoloft for 10 years now for depression, severe PMS and anxiety.
I do not in any way "cling to the mental illness" label or think it's cool or trendy to be on an SSRI. I just kow that it has helped me cope with the sudden and unexpected loss of my husband and my dear daughter's subsequent descent into self-destruction, severe depression and psychosis. She's been on Lamictal for the past 2 years with a very low dose of Abilify (2 mgs) and she is in the best place she's been for as long as she can remember. I wish I didn't have to take Aciphew for my GERD but darn, the symptoms are almost completely gone right now.

Do I wish that my daughter didn't have to be taking psych meds? Why, of course. But when she went off her meds a couple of years ago, her life just spun out of control beyond belief. She accepts that taking meds as well as using fish oil, B vitamins and calcium, eating healthy, getting exercise as well as a good night's sleep have contributed to her wellness and recovery.

Only Life, what a courageous story. It is truly critical that the mental health care professional helping a person with severe depression actually believes the patient/client can get well. It's imperative, in fact. My psychiatrist had given up. My therapist never did.

I remember my parents were attending NAMI meetings where they were told to get me into employment that support people with mental illness. That would have been the absolute worst decision for me. I didn't need employment that supported my mental illness. I needed employment that required that I show up and not have excuses. I also didn't particularly relish the idea of going in with a scarlet D on my chest and knowing that the company was getting a tax break because they allowed me to work for them. No thanks. (I don't blame my parents, they were desperate and were trying to help me.)

I continue to be glad that I was refused SSI/SSDI or whatever the hell it's called. It would have been a disaster. If I could get on the internet in the midst of a severe depression (as I did daily), then I could get out and work. Someone with depression doesn't need to be encouraged to stay inside, they need to be encouraged to go outside into the world. In the beginning in the work with my therapist my goals were as simple as, okay today I'm going to walk out and get the mail. That's it, just go outside and get the mail. Today I'm going to walk my dog. We started small, and eventally the more I got outside into the sunshine the better I felt. The more contact with other people, the more connected I was. I now work full time.

For me, the answer was not medication. For others, medication may be helpful. I'm not here to tell people what they should do regarding psych treatment because we're all different. But, I will say this if your mental health professional has given up on you then please go somewhere else. You need someone that truly believes your life can be different. My therapist didn't save my life, she just gave me the support I needed to save my own.

If you have a chance check out Candid Psychiatrist's website. I like what he has to say about depression.

Nancy,

My query that "if suicide is a symptom of a disease why don't we treat Palestine as a nation afflicted with a disease, with epidemic proportions of mental illness and send psychiatrists, therapists, and medication over to treat the potential suicide bombers..." is not a stretch though I understand that it is incendiary. And yet, in our world in certain areas, such as Palestine, 11 year olds are strapping explosives to their bodies to commit suicide and homicide. And we in the west look at this behavior and think, "they're not human, they're bad so it doesn't matter." It does matter. Again, we see an epidemic of starvation in Palestine, why not mental illness. Pretty obviously because we as a society understand when it gets down to it that mental illness is not a medical disease.

I don't doubt that meds can be life enhancing for some, but the myth that these meds correct a chemical imbalance in the brain is utter nonsense. Face the truth, the drugs make you feel better because they are drugs, not because there was anything the matter with you in the first place. You're not bad to take them, but neither I nor Francesca, nor anyone that points out the dangers in using these drugs is bad or in any way trying to harm you.

"For me, the answer was not medication. For others, medication may be helpful. I'm not here to tell people what they should do regarding psych treatment because we're all different." ---Lisa--- I agree with this statement, however I don't believe people are allowed the chance or given support to go off medication. Our society believes the key to mental health is medication, medication, and when it fails, more medication. We are told our weight gain is because we feel better on medications and now eat more, we are told our suicidal thoughts are because we are depressed, we are told our wanting to stop medications is because we lack insight into our illness. We are told we can't go off medications because we will die without them. For many many many people this is not the case. It sure wasn't in my case. I had to get completely out of the system to change my life for the better. When I went off medication no one was willing to help. The process was very long and very difficult. I did get worse (I wouldn't really say worse as I was pretty bad)when I stopped them. Does a drunk or drug addict not get suicidal and exhibit some pretty wierd behavior after stopping their drug? They go through some pretty tough times. There behavior isn't blamed on them, it's blamed on their drug. No one tells them to go back to their drug to stop their odd behavior and they're given the chance, the opportunity, to get it out of their system. With depression, it's just the opposite. The medications causing the problems are rushed to them to relieve (fix) their symtoms, which starts the cycle all over again. There are so many people out there who have gotten worse on psych medications, who've gained a ton of weight because of the medications, whose suicidal thoughts were brought on or made worse because of the medications, whose judgements have been altered as direct result of the medications. And this isn't being recognised by the medical community. There are so many people whose life will never be better on medications. They will go from one suicidal attempt to another, from one medication to another. Who will then look to ECT or VNS or something else all the while still taking medications that are causing their symptoms. In the mean time their hope is stripped from them, they basically are told they are hopeless and nothing is going to help them. This form of depression in not a mental illness. It is a behavior brought on by medications and called mental illness.

Lisa makes such a good point about having someone whether its a psych/doc/therapist/friend/ etc. believe in you, and that simple yet profound extension from one person to another--makes all of the difference. In some of the hardest days in recent months, it was my own psychiatrist who would tell me I was an amazing advocate. Imagine, I was working against the "system" and here's a psychiatrist encouraging me to keep pushing that mountain. I hit the wall during the summer with depression, and it was when I did those small efforts that are in reality enormous, like Lisa described--getting the mail, or walking the dog or taking a walk--is what helped me get myself out of the depression. It was self-determination, and hard work. Also, micro managing medication, for me which is Lamictal.

I hope people take the time to notice and read Lisa's comments. She has been saying many important things here regarding her recovery off of medications.

I also appreciate the kind words of support I have received here.Thank you.

In all areas of medicine these days, not just psychiatry, the most common solution to a person's symptoms is "here---take this pill ---it will help you with X-Y-Z." Beyond the huge marketing efforts of big pharma & doctors ready with their script pad, many people want/demand a "quick fix."

Initially, it is "easier" to pop a pill than to examine our lifestyle and habits, look into alternatives other than drugs, become informed and weigh the risk/benefits of popping that pill. Psychiatry has definitely seen an extreme shift towards psychopharmacolgy & pushing meds that are dangerous, understudied & expensive, with the potential for making things even worse. So I can completely understand why Jane, Gianna, Lisa and many others feel angry, bitter and betrayed when they have been derided and dismissed by their health care professionals & other consumers for saying "Enough!" & and choosing a non-pharmaceutical approach. It must be very lonely and difficult to take "the road less traveled."

I personally try very hard to read everyone's story with a open and empathetic mind. That most of us here are not complacent, blind consumers and instead welcome a healthy debate and open exchange of ideas is why I read Furious Seasons every day (thanks to Stephany for steering me to Philip's informative and thought provoking blog.)

Stephany wrote: "...when I did those small efforts that are in reality enormous, like Lisa described--getting the mail, walking the dog or taking a walk--is what helped me get myself out of the depression. It was self-determination and hard work. Also micromanaging medication, for me which is Lamictal." We are indeed unique individuals with different histories, genetics and issues. How we achieve our wellness will consequently be uniquely personal, too. So please---let's share our stories, learn from each other, keep questioning and still respect everyone's unique journey.

Sally wrote: "I don't doubt that drugs can be life-enhancing for some but the myth that these meds correct a chemical imbalance in the brain is utter nonsense."

I humbly disagree and think the phrase "chemical imbalace" is too simplistic. I'm on the regular mailing list for NARSAD and read their magazine from cover to cover when I receive it in my mail box. The research being done there is fascinating and very complex. How the brain works does involve molecular biology, biochemistry and more. For example, the results of MRI's and PET/brain scans of people with Parkinson's disease, major depression or schizophrenia are visibly different than those of people without such diagnoses. I personally believe that both biology & genetics as well as our life experiences & environment influence our brain's functioning.

"Face the truth, the drugs make you feel better because they are drugs, not because there was anything the matter with you in the first place."

First of all, the word "truth" always makes me uneasy, whether it's in the context of religion, science or politics. But if I were to apply your thinking to a drug I take ---Aciphex---for GERD --- and I feel better, that means that there was nothing wrong with me in the first place, right? Even though my symptoms were confirmed by an endoscopy?? Just because there is no test or quantifiable measurement/evidence for brain disorders (Alzheimer's disease, autism, schizophrenia, etc) doesn't mean that there isn't something physiological going on in the brain. Btw, I don't use this reasoning to deny or underestimate the influence of toxic parenting, abuse, divorce,death of a loved one, the loss of a job or any other traumatic and environmental factors.

My Dad was absolute in his belief that nature always trumped nurture. He often quoted from Konrad Lorenz and while he was grounded in science professionally, I also feel he used that line of thinking to let himself off the hook for his controlling and emotionally abusive ways as a husband and parent.

My Dad was diagnosed with probable Alzheimer's disease in 1995 and died a year ago from complications.(We also believe that he had an undiagnosed mood disorder for most of his adult life.) My Mom donated his brain for autopsy since the only real proof of Alzheimer's disease is via brain biopsy/autopsy. Even though my father had the APOE-4 genetic marker (which greatly increases the risk of AZD) and his father and 2 aunts also died of complications of dementia, the brain autopsy showed a very rare, non-genetic brain disorder called hippocampal sclerosis. So please don't underestimate/deny the biological roots of brain disorders.

"You're not bad to take them but neither I nor Francesca, nor anyone who points out the dangers in using these drugs is bad or is in any way trying to harm you."

Well, thanks, I guess, because I know I'm not "bad" nor do I feel defective or bad using a medication that works for ME. And I have never even considered that you're trying to harm me. I also know that I have never said that you, Francesca or anyone else making the choice not to use meds or pointing out their dangers (and there are many) are "bad", "stupid,", "duped" or "misled."

Thank you for your consideration.

Oops, I meant to include this NARSAD link with my most recent post re: the biology of the brain.
http://www.narsad.org/research/profiles/profile2007-06-22.html

Fair enough, Nancy. I appreciate and accept your criticism. Herb just really rubbed me the wrong way -- his description of his wife and *his* management of *her* illness was all too familiar to me. I am deeply troubled by many of the family dynamics that I see (including my own) coming into play once one member of the family has been psychiatrically labelled. Nevertheless, we shouldn't have dogpiled on Herb.

Thanks for your post, Jane. You make excellent points. There is simply no support in the psychiatric community for people to heal themselves without drugs. If you reject the drugs, as I did, you are completely on your own.

Dear Nancy,

Thank you for your commentary. Once again, I much appreciate when individuals share their own personal experiences especially utilizing the first person singular, “I” instead of you, they, we, people etc simply because, in my opinion, the rest is generalizations and many of those generalizations have not applied to my experiences and observations of my spouse’s experiences.

Dear Francesca,

Sorry I rubbed you the wrong way. I have a tendency to do that simply because I lack a herd mentality and personally dislike generalizations and the fact, as you well know, I come to the table from a totally different perspective. Whether you understand it, like it or don’t like it I’ve been a devoted and loving spouse under very challenging circumstances and doing the best I can in collaboration with some of the leading thought leaders and researchers in trying to maintain Joyce's wellness.

Also amongst the key objective of obtaining wellness has been maintaining and encouraging my wife’s autonomy for as long as possible.

You’ll also note how I sometime attract some supportive individuals understanding of my position as well as the occasional and consistent deviant anonymous troll posting the same repetitive crap. You’ll also notice the increased comment count on the few blogs I do respond to.

I would like to suggest, once again, to take some notes on Nancy’s sharing of her thoughts. First point, she has to be exceptional as Nancy is also our daughter’s name. Secondly, the manner of her sharing of “her” personal experiences and lastly, I’ll have to once again oppose another of your statements:

“There is simply no support in the psychiatric community for people to heal themselves without drugs. If you reject the drugs, as I did, you are completely on your own.” --- Francesca Allan

This has not been our experience but then again maybe because I am an outspoken advocate and I am not averse to challenging doctors, directives or theories or we're just fortunate to collaborate with the better doctors. Then again, it could also be my warmth, caring and overwhelmingly charming persona.

Case in point, when the last “Trial and Error Approach to Wellness” utilizing a medication for my spouse was once again proving refractory the leading researcher, lecturer, professor and psychiatrist attending to my spouse agreed with me when I presented my research addressing another option and direction. This particular caring, compassionate and highly educated M.D. picked up the phone to his colleague at the MUSC, Charleston, SC on a Thursday afternoon and said he wanted his colleague “to help these people.” Monday morning we were in Charleston, S.C. in the offices of another of one of the leading researchers in this country. To say the least, we live in Florida and if you know anything about research studies most often they will only accept individuals from the geographic area of the study site. They accepted Joyce although we verbally agreed and had to move to Charleston for 3 months of the acute phase of the study.

So, contrary to your generalization once again, I do not agree and also contrary to your statement we took a non-drug approach and one which is truly unique and in my opinion on the cutting edge of many of the newest research. Then again, it is not a panacea or is any of the other treatment options Joyce has utilized.

The most important point of all, the therapy has in my spouse’s case maintained her wellness almost continuously for 8 years. I am not opposed to any treatment regimen that safely benefits an informed patient and that also does not exclude the use of a witchdoctor.

Again, I personally would not be talking about “people.” I would be sharing my experiences and as an example, if it were true, that [“I” did not get support in the psychiatric community to heal myself without drugs. If “I” reject the drugs, as I did, “I” was completely on my own.]

That form of a statement I personally could readily accept and buy.

Whatever treatment approach one chooses, I would once again endorse being reasonably educated and I would also encourage hope and persistence with the ultimate objective of achieving wellness for oneself.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Francesca: “There is simply no support in the psychiatric community for people to heal themselves without drugs. If you reject the drugs, as I did, you are completely on your own."

Herb: "This has not been our experience but then again maybe because I am an outspoken advocate and I am not averse to challenging doctors, directives or theories or we're just fortunate to collaborate with the better doctors."

Herb, a major difference here is that your wife is dealing with depression, whereas I was accused of schizophrenia and/or bipolar disorder. The latter two come with quite a different mindset within the medical community.

It's quite rare, in my experience, for someone with unipolar depression to be forced into treatment. The characteristics of schizophrenia and bipolar, however, tend to be more annoying to family members, etc. and that's what I believe drives our draconian forced treatment laws.

Believe me, I have no problem challenging doctors (or nurses or security guards). I was not a compliant patient, as my many, many days spent in seclusion cells will attest.

Lastly, when I said "reject drugs," that was shorthand for "reject medical wisdom." I would certainly include hospitalization, electroshock and vns as part of medical "wisdom."

In the psychiatric paradigm of psych med based "treatment" for mental illness, it is quite a challenge for a patient/consumer to find support off of medications. This, is what I feel Francesca is describing here. The best example I can think of speaking from personal experience from being inside psych wards with my daughter, and I feel it is what Francesca is basing her personal story on--is that there is only one way out of a psych ward--that is to be medication compliant.Period. There are no options for alternative treatment, of any type inpatient inside psychiatric units. IF a patient [for instance my daughter]was non-compliant, then they receive forced compliance via injection of antipsychotics, such as Haldol. My daughter also spent time in the seclusion room, and for the most part those rooms have 4 walls and a floor.
I understand Francesca's fear that I see here in her writings, because I have the same one. Once labeled Schizophrenic, it is nearly impossible to find a psychiatrist to allow a person to go med free, and to get out of the hospital it's med compliance or you are not discharged. It causes a person to constantly look over their shoulder.
Recovery from inpatient psychiatric units takes time, and I know this from experience.
This is my commentary on the topic based on my own personal experience, from being inside psych wards with my daughter months at a time. What I saw happen to patients caused me personal trauma, due to seeing their pain, anguish, and begging to be discharged, and quite often screaming and crying when restrained while receiving injections--were the women. It broke my heart.

This is a discussion regarding depression, and each person has a story. It's not all about depression, but it sure is about mental health labels.

I appreciate all of you, and wish the best for healing for those speaking here that have deep pain from being inside the pscyhiatric world as a result. I read here and can see exactly who has been inside a psych ward as a patient.

That's the difference Herb. Appreciate the differences, as you continue to advocate for your wife;you must see how much you can learn from hearing these stories.

I cannot imagine being an advocate such as I am, without literally experiencing what my daughter did/therefore understand people here such as Francesca, Mark and others--have--it's intense, and horrible inside those wards--I wish it wasn't that way. But it is--and that is the very reason I won in mental health court to stop my daughter from being discharged--against doctors orders--to the state institution. The fear of that place--based on being there--is what lit the fire to my advocacy.
This does not diminish your efforts in supporting your wife's care Herb---it should broaden your horizon, and thought--when meeting people such as Francesca.

This was a long post, but it seems to be the way in this thread.

It is not about "sides". It just isn't.

Sally said-
"I don't doubt that meds can be life enhancing for some, but the myth that these meds correct a chemical imbalance in the brain is utter nonsense. Face the truth, the drugs make you feel better because they are drugs, not because there was anything the matter with you in the first place. You're not bad to take them, but neither I nor Francesca, nor anyone that points out the dangers in using these drugs is bad or in any way trying to harm you."

I completely agree with this is a squewed sort of way. I'll try to explain as best as I can, as I have taken my nightly Seroquel and may be a bit "off" in my writing. My apologies in advance

The "Seritonin Deficiency/imbalance Theory of Depression" has loong since been DISPROVEN, yet we "depressed persons" are still being Rx'd
SSRI's with the accompanying story that they are correcting a seritonin imballance in our brains... when in fact no such imbalance has actually been shown to have anything to do with depession.

Now this to me does not mean that there is not SOME SORT OF "imbalance" or "faulty wiring" or "unusual structure" going on within the brains of many of those that are LABELED as being mentaly ill (maybe not even most, who knows?)... It just means that really NO ONE ACTUALLY KNOWS AS-OF-YET what exactly it is that is going on in the depressed, or schizophrenic, or OCD or Bipolar etc., brain.
AND MORE IMPORTANTLY - no one really knows for sure how any of these medications work, and that is the real kicker to me.

SOoooo, If you don't know in the first place what the "imbalance" in the brain is or IF IT EVEN EXISTS AT ALL, AND you do not know exactly how the drugs used to treat it work.... The how the flick can you claim that you are giving a patient a medication that will work to precisely correct the precise imbalance(s) that they are suffering from?
It is definately pseudscience at this point in the game. Give it 20 or 30 years and maybe psychiatry will become a real science and real medical field, but until then it is all just theories and guessing and asking patients to play russian roulette with medication after medication. And doing that, IMO, has hurt just as many people as it has helped, if not more.

The scam and the unethical thing about the field of Psychiatry is that they CLAIM to KNOW for sure, what are the causes of various MI's and how the drugs actually work. They deney us, the patients and consumers, the basic right to have full disclosure of the truth about what MI's actually are and what meds actually do.... which the answer to both is: "we really don't know and we really don't know".

I think if we were all told this on our first visit to the psyche doc many many more of us would opt to try other methods to treat our "mental illnesses" first, befor resorting to a field of medicine that relies on UNPROVEN THEORIES and UNPREDICTABLE MEDICATIONS.

In my mind it is medical malpractice as a feild as a whole. They should HAVE TO tell us UP FRONT that Psychiatry is more of an art than a science and that really, no one knows as of yet what exactly causes depression, etc., and that most meds are a shot in the dark and do carry teh risk of making you more sick than you were to begin with.

It disgusts me that the medical community and most media outlets completely ignore the fact that psyche meds, especially antidepressants have totaly fuct up peoples lives and left them worse off then they ever were to begin with. These meds need to be used with more caution and reserved for the worst cases, instead of being given to relatively normal people, the doctors who rx'd them the meds telling htem they are severly ill, and then the patient ending up loosing all hope for ever having a normal life, taking more and more psyche meds than they should ever have been on, and ending up being disabled simply because some scummy Pdoc wouldn't be truthful and say "therapy and some lifestale changes would probably be the best option for you"

Dear Stephany,

For me, it is all about achieving wellness and long-term remission for my spouse.

While I do not know Francesca personally, I do know of many others on a personal face to face basis after many years both across from a support group meeting table and as friends. I know as well a number of individuals with similar diagnosis as related by you and Francesca although my particular interests and sharing of information relates more specifically to that which I know being MDD and those patients who have experienced TRD

Each individual and their experiences shared with me have for me been unique and it is for that reason that I attentively read or have listened to their unique personal experiences. I would like to reemphasize, personal experiences. I shall also add there is much which I have come to learn from these individuals not previously shared with me by mental health professionals and are some of the reasons I continue to peruse this and similar sites.

Once again my objections are to those generalized statements addressing and utilizing words such as you, they, we, people etc simply because those generalizations do not apply to my spouse’s or my experiences and knowledge and to others with whom I am fully acquainted.

I read these accounts also knowing that my spouse has not experienced being hospitalized as a ward patient nor has her treatment regimen been administered without my having knowledge and the opportunity to discuss her therapy with the attending physician. On several occasions, as a result of her suicide attempts, she was legally hospitalized under state law for about 72 hours of observation but in each instance she was not placed in a ward.

On a number of occasions when I felt her mood state deteriorating to the point where I was unable to help the situation, Joyce agreeably was hospitalized and again, not in a ward.

These are my personal perspectives sharing our experiences without raging against the system, its practitioners, the pharmaceutical industry and the like. I am well aware that we are far from any ideal in mental health care or the mental health arena but I, as a long time proactive advocate and activist, would rather spend my aging and limited energies trying to understand and improve what we do have rather than destroy and leave less or nothing for those who are truly desperate and financial unable to make choices and advocate for themselves.

So while I appreciate the sharing of the Philip’s, Stephany’s, Francesca’s, Sally’s and the rest of the contributors I shall still oppose those who take a position that it is one way or the other, black or white and leaving no room in the middle or accounting for the grey shadings that I know also exist.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Herb,
I'm glad your wife never had to be inpatient in a psych ward. Especially due to her being a woman. I will leave it at that.

Stephany, I appeciate your kind comments. I guess I do have to backpedal a bit. When I look back on that time in my life when in such deep despair I can't blame it all on the medication, although it's tempting to do. As I've mentioned before there was a lot going on in my life. I have had the misfortune of having some very messed up mental health professionals involved in my care. The first therapist I had lost his license due to sexual misconduct. He was the first person that put in the hospital against my will. One night he gave me the choice of the police coming to take me to the hospital or him coming to "check on me." Needless to say, checking on me wasn't what he had in mind. I was terrified of being forcibly hospitalized again, so I chose him. I received a letter this past week from that therapist. In the letter he takes responsibility for what he did to me (and to other women). He is working with a therapist who treats sex offenders. I read the letter, and then I went in the bathroom and threw up.

My psychiatrist was worse even than the therapist. It's been a rough road, and it's not over yet. My life is a lot better now, but I still struggle with the pain left over from those experiences. I don't know that I will ever completely get over it, but I'm trying. Because of what I've been through I can identify with the anger others voice regarding their psychiatric "care." I definitely understand it. There's a lot of abuse that happens, and very often the victims have no voice. I'm one of the lucky ones in that I was believed, and the perps have faced some consequences for their actions.

In one section of the current Chinese visa application form, the applicant is asked if he or she has any of the following conditions: AIDS; another STD or communicable disease; or a mental illness (which of course comprises a broad and often ill-defined spectrum). Presumably, a history of depression is grounds for the denial of entry into the country.

Though attitudes towards mental illness are relatively progressive in most European and North American countries, I am concerned that the push of recent decades for increased rights for people considered mentally ill could be compromised, particularly as we seem to be living in a climate of increasing hypervigilence. If depression, a condition in which the sufferer may well be lucid and high-functioning, is classed together with conditions in which the sufferer is not lucid and cannot function, then depressed people may become subject to greater scrutiny and unjustified discrimination.

As per the original post – I would like to see depression normalized in the public’s consciousness without it becoming trivialized because it is so pervasive and could be better dealt with, in my opinion, if people were comfortable discussing it and accepting that it exists.

Must have missed the first time. Nancy wrote "For example, the results of MRI's and PET/brain scans of people with Parkinson's disease, major depression or schizophrenia are visibly different than those of people without such diagnoses."

Junk science. Even the American Psychiatric Association stresses that these scans cannot be used diagnostically. If at some future date they could be, how would one determine what was the effect of the alleged disease versus the effects of the drugs?

Actually, during an MRI a person can be given a drug and the effect can be seen on a live brain. I saw this in a report re: ecstacy use. It showed the brain seriously becoming eaten away, in real time.While the person was watching their brain on the screen. Also, there are some studies post mortem that show differences in brain structures of bipolar, SZ and brains of patients w/out any psych dx. Some ppl. use SPECT scans and swear by the AMEN clinic, being able to target medications needed. The APA generally won't endorse this type of thing, and I say whatever works to get us from A>B is what is needed. I saw my daughter's brain in real time like that, it is how we saw her Chiari malformation. I could see the lack of CSF, and her brain going down into her spine, which can cause psychiatric symptoms. It's very complex, and we definitely do not have simple answers re: treatments.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/120266.html

Hard to say what the scans are actually illustrating. If the scans can prove or disprove a diagnosis, why wouldn't the APA climb on board?

As an adult child of a mother who was completely disabled by depression, I can assuredly say, "if people are telling you to get help and you do not, and you do not begin with meds to help you see what they are talking about, then you are neglectful not only to your own health, but the mental and physical health of your children now and into the future." Meds are needed as a short ter, sometimes long term solution. Bipolar people have racing thoughts and rages, these need a medication to calm down their nervous systems. Maybe then , therapy without meds can be a goal and real issues can be addressed. But, without meds, I believe the person may never get the help they need. I experienced it.

Prolonged depression and anxiety seem to be
connected. Both can be RELIEVED with IV
injections of magnesium or transdermal
magnesium. Ordinary magnesium pills, powders and
liquids are only good if you're constipated
and for not much else. So what do you do when
you read something like this in the comments
section? Ignore it. If you're the curious sort
you'll google it. If you are a straight ahead linear type you will dismiss the scattering of references as the worst kind quackery and you would be wrong. All you have to do is forget
the caffeine for a couple of days and go
soak your feet for 30 minutes a day in
magnesium oil and watch the results.
If you can't do w/o the excitotoxins
you'll just have to take my word for it.)