Dear Philip:

“Regardless of where you stand on the SSRI-suicidality debate, it would be useful to remember that whenever someone starts a new anti-depressant or changes a dosage of a current anti-depressant that that person should be watched very attentively for any psychological and physical reactions. If they complain about problems with the drug and not trusting how they feel (feeling very agitated or, conversely, "better than well" to cite two warning signs), then you have a sure sign that something bad is afoot. Respond promptly and appropriately.” --- Philip Dawdy

In my opinion the whole sum and substance of your posting this article is most importantly contained in your statement in the above paragraph and should have been emblazoned in bold and larger type. Quite frankly, that same statement should be posted to your forum periodically as a reminder to those less informed.

As a very long time care giver I’ve been aware and attentive of this fact for more than 4 decades. Let us also not forget that for centuries past severe depression left untreated is and of itself lethal.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

How do we know that she was taking an SSRI to begin with? SSRIs are not the only anti-depressants out there. Maybe she was on Wellbutrin or on a tricyclic. I wish the blogger put facts into the stroy, rather than using it as a launch pad for the criticism of SSRIs.

I'm not sure what page Herb is on here regarding the possible role of antidepressants in violent suicide. In fact, I believe strongly that treated depression is almost always more lethal than untreated depression and the statistics that are presented about the supposed dangers of "untreated depression" are often actually referring to TEMPORARILY untreated depression, i.e. people in withdrawal, not NEVER treated depression. Those clinicians who are choosing to label it "untreated depression" are hopelessly naive about the length of time it takes to withdraw from medications. There are long lasting, perhaps even permanent, effects to the brain that are present long after medication has left the blood stream. In referring to treated and untreated depression we need to know if people have EVER been treated and what other substances they've been on too for that matter that might lead to intractable mood problems or violence and of course the circumstances that are contributing to the problem so that those can be addressed with something besides a pill.

hi red rover, let the blogger respond: i would say there's a 90 percent chance she was put on an ssri or an snri (effexor, cymbalta), given what drugs are commonly prescribed in oz. also, wellbutrin can be just as dicey on the weird behavior front, just not as often from what i understand. as for a tricyclic, i would seriously doubt it. regardless of what drug she was on, i think my arguments abotu how the media handles anti-dep stories and how researchers defend them is legit. i assume we'll find out someday what anti-dep she was on.

either way, i think the cautions if offered to people about how to watch someone who's just on an anti-dep are well placed no matter what drug is involved. or would that be non factual in your opinion?

While SSRIs (and SNRIs) have the most pronounced abrupt effect on impulsive suicidality apparently, it actually is an effect of multiple classes of antidepressants and other psychotropic drugs. This phenomenon predates Prozac -- look at Sylvia Plath. I think she was put on a massive dose of imipramine before she stuck her head in the oven. Even her estranged husband Ted Hughes blamed her death on medication.

Dear Sara, Philip et al,

I most truly apologize to you all for my lack of writing skills and inability to communicate my thoughts effectively.

“I'm not sure what page Herb is on here regarding the possible role of antidepressants in violent suicide.” --- Sara

I was on the page responding to Philip’s posting of the “Australian Newscaster Kills Herself, Anti-Depressants May Be Implicated” and responding to something Philip wrote and I apologize for repeating myself.

“Regardless of where you stand on the SSRI-suicidality debate, it would be useful to remember that whenever someone starts a new anti-depressant or changes a dosage of a current anti-depressant that that person should be watched very attentively for any psychological and physical reactions. If they complain about problems with the drug and not trusting how they feel (feeling very agitated or, conversely, "better than well" to cite two warning signs), then you have a sure sign that something bad is afoot. Respond promptly and appropriately.” --- Philip Dawdy

“In my opinion the whole sum and substance of your posting this article is most importantly contained in your statement in the above paragraph and should have been emblazoned in bold and larger type. Quite frankly, that same statement should be posted to your forum periodically as a reminder to those less informed.

As a very long time care giver I’ve been aware and attentive of this fact for more than 4 decades. Let us also not forget that for centuries past severe depression left untreated is and of itself lethal.” --- Herb

Would someone please take a moment to please explain to me how I might write more clearly? Or was I posting to wrong webpage?

In the words of Jack Nicholson and I’ll paraphrase, “Am I missing something here” when the discussion turns to “violent suicide.” Is that opposed to pretty, graceful, sexy or some other appropriate or inappropriate suicide? Or how about we try “terrifying suicide” as when I found my spouse comfortably and peacefully asleep in our bed while turning blue and I found it a “terrifying suicide” attempt? A simple concoction of medications relaxed my spouse while she went to sleep and there I was facing “Shock and Awe suicide.”

Please someone hand me a pill as I can still visualize and sense my real terror.

Please also forgive me for not commenting further on some of which I read here other than quoting from The Last Psychiatrist:

"the dx is far less important than what helps the situation. For example, just because thyroid meds help someone's depression, doesn't mean they should be called hypothyroid." --- The Last Psychiatrist

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Back in 1990 through 1993, when Prozac was first implicated in 'violent' suicides, Eli Lilly responded by telling doctors to explain to their patients that they should not tell anybody they were taking Prozac. Now that the suicide connection is more widely believed, doctors and family members are more likely to watch the patient on Prozac. At least it is not kept secret!

Also, during those early years in the 90's, Eli Lilly told doctors that they, Eli Lilly, would pay for all legal costs should the doctos be sued because of their prescribing of Prozac.

"Violent" suicides were recognized as part of the difference between Prozac and unmedicated suicides. Examples of violent suicides were: inflicting over 100 massive wounds to the skin by using a stich remover [lawsuit settled], stabbing oneself to death slowly [after cutting off the left arm] while recording it with a video camera [this horrible case was presented to the FDA in the 1991 Meeting on Prozac & Suicidality] or a woman jumping out of a plane at 3,500 feet or a man jumping out of a plane at 10,000 feet. Also there are three cases of woman who burned themselves to death. These are all posted on www.ssristories.com.

Drs. Teicher & Cole at Harvard in 1990 called the suicide attempts & behaviors on Prozac "profoundly violent" & this started the whole debate. Teicher & Cole estimated that it afflicted 3.7% of the people who took Prozac. They were referring to people who were not suicidal at baseline [before taking Prozac}.

Just thought I would post some early history here.

Dear Rosie,

Thanks for the information it was interesting. I too thought I might respond and post an even earlier record to your submission.

The following individuals also committed suicide; Socrates drinking hemlock, Mark Anthony stabbing himself, Gwili Andre self-immolation, Albert Ayler drowning himself, Diane Arbus cutting her wrists, Hubert Aquin self-inflicted gunshot, Ross Alexander gunshot, Stanley Adams gunshot, Robert Adams, Jr. gunshot, Albert Ballin overdose, Isobel Barnett electrocution, Walter Benjamin overdose, Hans Berger hanging, Dan Burros gunshot, Robert Stewart slit his throat, Vere Gordon Childe jumped off a mountain, Claude Chappe jumped down a well, Diana Churchill drug overdose, Alasdair Clayre jumped in front of a train, Robert Clive slit his throat, Adam Couture tied himself to a horse, Rudolf Diesel jumped from a boat, Andrea Feldman jumped from a building, Vachel Lindsay drank a bottle of Lysol, Peter Llewelyn-Davies threw himself in front of a train, Noel Mewton-Wood drank prussic acid, Sylvia Plath gassed herself in an oven, Vincent van Gogh gunshot.

As I’m sure you realize all have something in common. They all committed suicide and to the best of my knowledge none used Prozac simply because the events took place prior to the sale of Prozac.

I personally don’t know or have thought about whether suicides are pretty, gross, interesting or “violent.” I do know these are but an extremely small sampling of suicides prior to Prozac and I also know personally of the legacy, guilt and trauma left behind for family, loved ones and friends to endure as well as the trauma as a support person to a spouse with several failed suicide attempts. In my opinion, Prozac does not hold a monopoly or any record as a possible cause for suicide.

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Hi Herb,

Thanks for the update on past suicides. I don't know what this has to do with the subject, though, because Dr. Martin Teicher was referring to people who were not suicidal when they started taking Prozac. This much has been established. They became "grossly preoccupied" with violent suicide only after starting on the Prozac.

I am glad you are keeping an open mind, though

Herb, Maybe you missed my earlier comment which included details of Sylvia Plath's suicide. Diane Arbus also had her medication changed shortly before her death. This phenomenon, although more pronounced on SSRIs, exists with other classes of antidepressants too. And I don't think any of us are trying to say that suicide doesn't ever happen unless someone is taking medication. Of course that would be preposterous but we certainly believe there are many cases where suicide (and murder) would NOT have occurred except because of the presence of the drug and that it OFTEN increases the likelihood of violence. Cases like this have been acknowledged in court.

Prozac was rx to me for "anxiety" the summer of 2003, by a PCP doc. I was in the process of moving, and was stressed out. Doc said, "take this you will feel like everything just rolls off your back."
Knowing how my youngest had suicidal attempts at age 11 [Luvox,1999, same drug Columbine shooter took],age 13,Zoloft,2001; I questioned this PCP about whether or not I would have an adverse reaction?
"No, said the doc."
Blindly, and stupidly I must say, I took that, and needless to say, never in my life had I such magnitude of horrific suicidal ideation, it was not depression or "thoughts". It literally drove me out of my mind. I stood on top of my car in a parking lot at midnight, barefoot, in the pouring rain screaming, "I want to kill myself!". I've never experienced anything like that in my life.
Until the withdrawals! That is how I learned first-hand about brain zaps, tremors, stomach pain, inability to think, the list goes on and on.
Whatever anyone believes in the SSRI induced violent thought-suicide topic---I know Ive felt it, and also held onto my daughter's coat sleeve driving 65mph on a freeway while she was on Zoloft as she had the car door wide open and was attempting to jump.
Her adverse reaction this way to antidepressants is SO STRONG that it's listed in her chart now as an "allergic reaction" so when she is in a hospital she wears and allergy band that says, "NO SSRI's".

Something to think about, are anecdotal stories that all seem to connect to antidepressant use; regardless of medical literature, etc.

I will never take one again as a result. I've never felt that way again either.Not even close.

I think that SSRIs were intended to replaces benzos. I gather this from seeing the doctors' everreadiness to prescribe a SSRI and when I ask them for a benzo, I see them frown, the writing on the scrip stops, they look at me puzzled, etc.

I use emotion for the many and reserve reason for the few.