October 15, 2007Meds Or Vitamins As Cure For Bipolar Disorder?Over the years I've met several bipolars who claim they were cured through diet and vitamins. They are always very passionate when talking about their cure and, as dubious as I tend to be of any claims of a "cure," I usually walked away partly jealous of the people who claim themselves cured and wondering if there wasn't something to their approach. Such a question isn't exactly asked by researchers and advocates for the mentally ill, even though they often pay lip service to such notions as nutrition and physical health. At the same time, psych docs do a poor job of monitoring whether their patients are even eating at all, much less what they are eating. The proportion of folks with depression and schizophrenia, for example, whom I've watched literally starve themselves is astounding. It's a phenomenon that the mental health industry would do well to pay more attention to. Here's an article on a woman named Autumn Stringham from Alberta, Canada, who was seriously doped upon five meds. Her father and others started a nutritional treatment company--Truehope--and she was "cured." The company and its products have been the source of much friction involving researchers and the Canadian government, which eventually went after the company for making claims it felt were unsupportable. I'm a bit dubious about claims that diet and nutrition can cure bipolar disorder or other mental illnesses, but I am just as dubious that Seroquel or Effexor can do the same. But I've run into enough cases over the years of people reforming their behavior through the vitamin cure that I'd be a fool to discount their claims too much. Posted by Philip Dawdy at October 15, 2007 10:55 AM
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Eating well, keeping alcohol/caffeine intake to a moderate level, getting exercise, and setting a consistent sleep schedule will go a long way toward "curing" someone of just about anything. Because people naturally self-medicate with food (and its effects on blood sugar, serotonin, et al), a good, person-specific diet can both remove stressors and add to someone's capability to handle fluctuations. Throw in some CBT, and that's even better. It may not be a cure-all, but it certainly could be a cure-a-lot, and one whose effects endure. Posted by: MvB at October 15, 2007 12:19 PMHm. Well, I'm on 900 mg lithium, 200 mg Lamictal (when it was discovered the lithium was not enough to keep the swings at bay), plus I take fish oil caplets and a full multivitamin with iron. I find that both in tandem are necessary for me, because when I'm not properly nourished, I'm moody anyway, but vitamins alone definitely weren't enough to "cure" my disorder. I wouldn't say I'm "cured" now (I don't think it's possible to say I'm cured when if I'm off the meds, I'm basically non-functional), but I am definitely stable. So, I'd say both have their merits, and that even if you're on meds, it's important to be well in body. I would also say that I wouldn't be surprised if it was eventually found that poor diet/nutrition are huge triggers for mental illness. Sort of like the people who have bipolar disorder "induced" through anti-depressants, but are fine once they go off the Zoloft or whatever, it's possible that there are people who are actually triggered by poor diet who improve dramatically once their body is in proper working order. Posted by: Meredith at October 15, 2007 01:16 PMThere are mothers who have used this in the United States, "EmPower", with Dr. Charles Popper, read a bit here:EmPower/Truehope/Harvard. ~other mothers challenged the thought leaders at CABF bp kids dot org.[Biederman] I wouldn't have been able to withdraw from 50 mg Seroquel, 200 mg Zoloft, 200 mg of Lamictal and 11 mg of Risperdal if it hadn't been for my diet and nutrition. It's not all smooth sailing, but I'm not relapsing or getting emotionally ill. I am physically ill right now. The drugs wreck your body and withdrawal is hard on it. This is 20 years of drugging I'm leaving behind in large part because I've changed my diet and nutrition and I'm now adding meditation. No one has to believe, but not even trying healthy ways to help oneself is just stupid. Posted by: Gianna at October 15, 2007 06:26 PMI think you are right that psychiatrists merely "pay lip service to such notions as nutrition and physical health", and it is tragic. Having seen two psychiatrists, neither have ever directly or indirectly asked me what I was doing to take care of myself. Fixing my erratic college-student sleep cycle helped me dramatically. And oddly enough, drinking enough water has enormously as well. I also eat tons of greens, and swim a mile every other day. I would never say nutrition and exercise can replace medication, but I think no one conducts research on less expensive alternatives because they are simply not profitable. Posted by: NAP at October 15, 2007 06:48 PMI know many of the folks who make or use supplements are in terror that Pharma and the FDA will capture their businesses, grab them away, then charge giant prices for the products. I see this all the time in alternative medicine publications. How real this may be I don't know. But my daughter is about to try orthomolecular psychiatry. Everything else has been a disaster. Posted by: Affecta at October 15, 2007 08:01 PMMost placebo-controlled studies of Omega-3 fatty acids suggest that they're marginally effective in bipolar disorder. There's also a study that I'm aware of that suggests they're marginally effective in the treatment of borderline personality disorder. Posted by: Simon at October 15, 2007 08:41 PMAll my psychiatrists have encouraged me to exercise / continue to exercise my running of 3 miles a day. They're always on me for the sleep schedule which I just can't seem to manage. It seems they're open to that there are certainly other non-med things that can at the very least help with stability. They haven't ever said much about diet except limiting alcohol. I doubt that just vitamins can be a "cure" or anything close. For the most part I'm an extremely healthy individual and I always have been but that didn't keep me away from any erratic mood cycles. Hell I was training for a triathalon and... all hell broke loose. Posted by: Nathaniel at October 15, 2007 09:15 PMOh, as far as the product you mention above by Truehope. The ingredient list doesn't impress me in the least, but I have had a number of people stop by my blog and say it has worked for them, so I won't deny their reality. Personally I feel better about controlling each nutrient I put in my body and feel that some of the stuff in their product is not at optimal levels and one of the ingredients I know made me manic when I tried it, so I wouldn't try their product for anything. Everyone is unique. I trust it works for some. I rather do the research and come up with a formula unique for myself. Posted by: Gianna at October 16, 2007 03:53 AMNathaniel, it's good that you exercise. Just remember not having a regular sleep cycle is one of the things pathologized by mental health professionals. Sure, if you have an extreme manic state where you don't sleep at all for a week or so, that's serious. Insomnia, however is a normal part of the human condition. If you compare sleeping drug commercials to bipolar commercials, note this: in the bipolar commercials you usually see a woman, like the abilify piece with the woman walking through the woods, obviously a housewife; in the sleep commercials you usually see a professional man, like that darned beaver/Abe Lincoln series. Message: Women who don't sleep are crazy, men who don't sleep have insomnia. Except that you're a guy which blows my theory a little. I think the placebo effect can make a person sick, i.e. if a doctor tells you you are unstable and can't control yourself, you can't. And then he gives you drugs to make this a physical fact. So someone, terribly upset about something sees a phrink. He says there's nothing in your life that should be upsetting you so much but your brain is abnormal and makes you think there is. So you act this way. Sort of like when someone tells you you don't look well and find an ache to focus on. On the other hand, if you believe that vitamens will make you stable, they will. And then there are people who are born more emotionally volatile than others. If you see this as debilitating to you, a valid choice, you have every right to take medication and to be given honest information about this medication. No I don't have any research to back up this theory and don't mean to belittle what others believe. Posted by: Sally at October 16, 2007 05:27 AMI have found yoga and being a vegeterian helpful. I stopped my Lithium after many bouts of projectile vomiting. I still have bad day, and wonder if meds are the answer, but I am very aware each day to get out in the sun, and stick to a routine that includes the gym, even for 30 minutes. My therapist always asks about my sleeping, which is better lately. I am trying to believe that acute awareness of my triggers (stay away from triggers) and yoga have really helped me. I have been in the medical field for 20 years, and it is rare to meet someone who considers nutrition & exercise first or in combination therapy. I believe the drug companies have infiltrated medical schools and pushed the write a prescription to the point that it is second nature for a provider. Posted by: L at October 16, 2007 05:53 AMPhysical exercise, a regular sleep pattern, minimizing alcohol and eating well appear to be crucial for me staying well. I doubt vitamin therapy, on its own, could come close to having such an impact. Just as psychiatrists ignore the basics (e.g. nutrition) and whip out their prescription pads, I fear that patients, too, ignore the basics and pop pills (vitamins or psych meds). We, as a society, are in love with the idea of popping pills. The truth is that staying healthy is pretty simple. Posted by: Francesca Allan at October 16, 2007 09:19 AMI can't speak for BP, but I can speak for my fiance's progress in managing schizophrenia. He's been adapting some of the suggestions published by Dr. Abram Hoffer, a Canadian doctor (find him on Wikipedia) with a focus in orthomolecular psychiatry, specifically focusing on Niacine/Niacinimide/B3, and while it's not a total fix like Hoffer seems to think it might be, in conjunction with a low dose of antipsych it's working very well. Cure? I don't know. Manage: definately. It would certainly not surprise me if other physio/psychological issues could be treated in such a way. Posted by: Lissa at October 16, 2007 09:52 AMdon't know if you got this: Oh, as far as the product you mention above by Truehope. The ingredient list doesn't impress me in the least, but I have had a number of people stop by my blog and say it has worked for them, so I won't deny their reality. Personally I feel better about controlling each nutrient I put in my body and feel that some of the stuff in their product is not at optimal levels and one of the ingredients I know made me manic when I tried it, so I wouldn't try their product for anything. Everyone is unique. I trust it works for some. I rather do the research and come up with a formula unique for myself. Posted by: Gianna at October 16, 2007 10:06 AMHi, I found your site through the Bipolar Blast blog. If you have any doubts about the efficacy of vitamins, amino acids and whole foods in healing for mental health, I would like to suggest that you read the book, "Depression Free, Naturally" by Joan Mathews-Larson, founder of the Health Recovery Center. This book is both practical and enlightening. -- Believe me the answers are out there, if you search for them. I am a psych survivor and if not for the healing power of whole foods, vitamins and amino acids, omega-3, etc., I would not be in recovery today. It takes a combination of treatments. The psych meds that were forced upon me for years have caused me serious side effects, including tardive dyskinesia. Psych meds made me feel spiritually dead inside and wreaked havoc on my body. Everyone has a right to feel whole in mind, body and spirit and psychiatric drugs kill, but vitamins heal. It is possible to get better with proper diet and nutrition, but it dangerous to do it alone or go cold turkey. The psych meds take years to withdraw from because of the horrible addictive qualities. I am slowly recoverying, but I am recovering due to healthy alternatives....we must fight for our health. It is a human right and a quality of life issue. Other experts in the field include Dr. Jay S. Cohen (medicationsense.com), Dr. Joseph Mercola (mercola.com), Dr. Andrew Saul (doctoryourself.com). Posted by: Denise at October 16, 2007 10:47 AMI'm not trying to start a flame war but I have to say I really can't stand Dr. Hoffer a.k.a. The Vitamin King. He spent a lot of time researching electroshock and niacin on schizophrenics and claimed results that could not be duplicated. Hoffer is from my home town and I used to see him a lot on the psych ward and found him to be a bit of a pompous git. I have an issue with the whole idea that any mental illness is about chemical deficiencies/abnormalities, whether we're talking about neurotransmitters or vitamins. These theories are simply not supported by the research so let's move on, please. Supportive environments (decent housing, meaningful work, access to social programs) are well-known to be helpful to the mentally ill. In the absence of any better option, could we not put our treatment dollars there? It cost them $800 a day to incarcerate, torture and humiliate me. Had we spent that money on setting up housing for me instead, we'd all be better off. Posted by: Francesca Allan at October 16, 2007 01:41 PMA spot on Good Morning America just spurred my memory. Part of my saga involves sleeping through a final in my third semester of law school. I was exhausted. I went to a phrink (yes, I'd seen them in the past due to family probs and their effect on me and because I'm trained as a counselor and I still believe voluntary, anonymous counseling works and everyone should try it at least once). I wanted the pshrink to write me an adderall prescription so I could compete with all of the other students who were high on it but as I have a heart murmur and a drug addict mother, in the end both the doc and I were afraid of the effect that might have on me so he explained he thought I had dysthemia and I started on effexor. I did mention to him that I was exhausted and having heart palpatations. We both thought panic attacks and depression. He didn't run a blood test. Finally months later when I couldn't afford the effexor and didn't like it because as I told him it took away my anxiety but I was still tired so I was left with a horrible non anxious knowledge I had a lot to do, I went to a regular doctor, told him I was tired. He ran a full blood test and called me later to say, "no wonder you are tired, you are severly anemic" and since it was Alabama, recommended a hysterectomy. Finally I ended up at the local health food store and told the vitamen girl able my plight - anemia so severe a doctor recommended a hysterectomy, and she recommended an iron supplement. I've been through hell since then, but I've not been tired. And I might add, Alabama has both a horribly backwards traditional medical community, and a pretty amazing forward thinking alternative health and healing community. Still, I must partically retract my previous statement that vitamens can heal mental illness due to the placebo effect. That can happen and when it does, it is great, but it is also true that physical problems have psychological symptoms and can be cured with vitamens, herbs, nutrients, and even, at times, traditional medicines, and they said so on Good Morning America today (which does not make if false;). Posted by: Sally at October 18, 2007 05:44 AMI cannot resist a number of comments about
"Cure"?! Doubtful, but possible. "Controlled", probably. > I'm a bit dubious about claims that diet and nutrition Right. At least with diet and nutrition there is the > I think you are right that psychiatrists merely "pay lip Right. Par for the course. I used to get upset about this, > Most placebo-controlled studies of Omega-3 fatty acids True. The reason to get a goodly amount of omega-3 fatty > I still have bad day, and wonder if meds are the answer, Great idea! Vitamin D deficiency is pandemic. And it vis: http://www.cholecalciferol-council.com/Depression.pdf http://www.webmd.com/content/article/91/101374.htm http://www.cholecalciferol-council.com/Vieth'sStudyDepression.pdf http://www.nutritionj.com/content/3/1/8 > I can't speak for BP, but I can speak for my fiance's That's odd. Hoffer never suggested that vitamins were > Cure? I don't know. Manage: definately. Thank you. > Dr. Hoffer...spent a lot of time researching Too bad they never tried! I mean, they never actually > I have an issue with the whole idea that any mental They are supported by overwhelming research. Which is not Alan, I just wanted to comment on your comments (new comments are preceded by **): Francesca: Dr. Hoffer...spent a lot of time researching electroshock and niacin on schizophrenics and claimed results that could not be duplicated. Alan: Too bad they never tried! I mean, they never actually duplicated his protocols; hence their trials mean little. ** No, you misunderstood what I wrote. Hoffer's research was duplicated and the results were dismal. Hence, Hoffer's trials mean nothing. Francesca: I have an issue with the whole idea that any mental illness is about chemical deficiencies/abnormalities, whether we're talking about neurotransmitters or vitamins. These theories are simply not supported by the research so let's move on, please. Alan: They are supported by overwhelming research. Which is not for a moment to say that that research, and those "chemical deficiencies/abnormalities", are themselves the ** No, the research is not "overwhelming." There's a remarkable lack of evidence for the biochemical theory of mental illness. There is no biochemical correlate for mood disorders or schizophrenia or any other mental state. ** Despite superficially compelling brain scans (which are actually computer-generated averages, rather than a scan of any individual crazy brain) displayed on CNN earlier this year, the truth is that there is no way to measure neurotransmitters or neuroactivity in a living person. The scans merely measure blood flow and blood flow may or may not be correlated with neural activity. One could just as easily hypothesize that blood flow is increased to the area where neurons *aren’t* firing properly. ** Serotonin (alleged to be correlated with mood disorders) cannot be measured in a living brain. Serotonin’s metabolites, however, can be drawn via spinal tap and much research has gone into trying to link mental disorders with abnormal levels of serotonin metabolites. This is potentially fascinating; however, serotonin is a multi-tasker and not just a neurotransmitter. Over 90% of the body’s serotonin is found in the gut (it is crucial to muscle contraction) so, when we draw the metabolites, we don’t even know what we’re measuring. ** Indeed, there is no objective test for any mental illness so there is no way to prove or disprove an alleged psychiatric disorder. A psychiatric diagnosis is a clinical impression morphed into a moral verdict. It is not a medical judgment. The words ** Thank you for agreeing that "supportive environments" are important, though. Support has proven to be critical in my own recovery and that of every ex-mental patient I have ever met. I take strong exception to Francesca Allen's notion that Dr. Hoffer's work is "unproven." I personally believe that his research into abnormal pyroles in some mental illnesses is much, much stronger, than the research used to sell drugs such as zyprexa, prozac, and the like. It's quite simple; he had sick people pee into a bottle, and put the urine a chromatograph. Posted by: Jaime at October 19, 2007 08:00 AMI believe you've just damned Dr. Hoffer with very faint praise, if you're suggesting that his research is more respectable than Big Pharma's. Who's isn't? If Hoffer's got the answer to schizophrenia, why doesn't the mainstream get on board? Peeing into a bottle is simple enough ... but then what happened? Posted by: Francesca Allan at October 19, 2007 09:06 PMMs. Allan, I choose to research thoroughly research controversial subjects before I post about it on the internet. May I suggest you do the same? Hoffer, MD, PhD, that he is, took schizophrenics' and bipolars' urine, and looked for differences. He found that there was an unknown substance (mauve factor) in their urine. He, and his co-workers eventually identified it ( a deformed pyrole they named kryptopyrole), and realized that it leaches Zinc and B6 out of the body. As I understand it, zinc and B6 have many uses, but with pathologically low zinc levels, you become paranoid and perhaps aggressive, B6 is indispensable for the adequate production of neurotransmitters; with pathologically low levels of neurotransmitters, you hallucinate. Hoffer et al found that if they got B6 and Zn levels back to normal the "schizophrenics" with this anomaly in their urine no longer were "schizoprenic." You have people with kryptopyrole counts of 2,500 who were hopelessly delusional for months; within days of getting zinc and B6 levels right, they were healthy. The paradox of being a doctor is that the worst thing that can befall a doctor is to not have any patients; the establishment, which represented America's psychiatrists, America's for-profit psychiatric hospitals, and America's for-profit drug companies cannot have been too pleased. They slapped a panel together that reported that Hoffer's therapy didn't work, which is amazing as I know people and doctors who swear they have seen it work. Hoffer wrote a rebuttal that was more than 100 pages long going all the reasons why their "findings" *cannot* have been serious; they were never answered. In fact, one of the 5 members of the panel later admitted that the report had been dishonest, and never got a grant again. As a rule I try to shy away from conspiracy theories; generally human stupidity, ignorance, and sloth suffice to explain why stupid things happen, but this is one case where I am in no doubt whatsoever that there was a conspiracy to advance the interests of the medical establishment over those of the patients. But you are correct; this anomaly is strongly exacerbated by stress. In other words, if you have it, you will need much more help to deal with stressful situations. But if you don't have it, you can tolerate a lot more stress. I think that how Lilly marketed zyprexa and prozac was extremely sleazy, but nothing even remotely like what Hoffer, and his co-workers such as Pfeiffer had to deal with. Look into Eva Edelman's book before you form any opinions. Posted by: Jaime at October 20, 2007 09:41 AM
> Alan, I just wanted to comment on your comments (new I don't think I misunderstood. Hoffer's research (and the vis: : http://www.doctoryourself.com/hoffer_paradigm.html --- That's a small snippet. You should read the whole article. See also: : http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/articles/orthotheory.shtml > Francesca: I have an issue with the whole idea that any I am familiar with this critique. It has some (modest) There is clear evidence linking biochemical and : J Clin Psychiatry. 2000;61 Suppl 6:12-7 Of course, there is much more. It is clear that the monoamine thesis is incomplete. Not There is also the important new neurotrophin thesis, None of these things can ever be proven to be THE cause of > ** Despite superficially compelling brain scans (which are We do when we draw and analyze CSF. There's overwhelming evidence that the serotonin system is I am familiar with Szasz, Breggin, and that whole crowd -- The anti-psychiatry critique is good as far as it goes. But there is something missing in their analysis: namely, I have before me a copy of Breggin's "The Anti-Depressant This is the problem with the anti-psychiatry crowd -- and > ** Thank you for agreeing that "supportive environments" Great. Keep up the work. And consider biochemical factors Sure, Jaime, you can suggest anything that you want. Thanks for your "advice" but I have lots of research material (including being a patient of Hoffer's years ago and talking to Hoffer's current patients) to guide me in forming my opinion: Hoffer is a quack. If indeed he can "cure" a subgroup of schizophrenics, then I guess he should hoof it on down to the Nobel Office to pick up his prize. Have a nice day. Posted by: Francesca Allan at October 21, 2007 09:46 AMJaime, I just realized that you addressed me as "Ms. Allan" and then referred to "Hoffer, MD, PhD." Very clever. I don't go by "Ms." Do you have any idea what my academic credentials are? Having letters after one's name is no guarantee of intelligence and deferring to someone on that basis is naive. Results are what we are after, remember? You're reminding me of what I loathe about the Ivory Tower. Posted by: Francesca Allan at October 21, 2007 10:02 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthomolecular_psychiatry Rebuttals ........ unfortunately the link to Hoffer's
The reply to the APA Task Force Report: http://www.iahf.com/orthomolecular/reply_to_apa_t PS: snippet: http://www.iahf.com/world/981011a.html When Pauling got behind Hoffer and Osmond, the drug cartel went gonzo and The APA Task Force Report titled "Magavitamins and Orthomolecular Therapy Ms. Allan, If you disclose and document all the abbreviations that follow your name, I'll be happy to reference them when addressing you. Dr. Hoffer's work and therapies have impressed enough people to fill an entire ballroom when they celebrated his 90th birthday. Could it be that your patient sample is not representative? Posted by: jaime at October 21, 2007 01:52 PMAlan, try this: http://www.iahf.com/orthomolecular/reply_to_apa_tfr_7.pdf Posted by: jaime at October 21, 2007 02:04 PMAlan, I appreciate your efforts here and I believe you are sincere so I will continue this dialogue. As I was saying, prior to my being sidetracked by Jaime, my issue with Hoffer was his electroshock/niacin treatment regimen for schizophrenics. Further brain damage is about the worst possible thing you could do to a hurting brain and I think electroshock docs are beyond irresponsible. If and when anyone finds a biochemical correlate for mental illness, fine, but it would only be a correlate! Anyway, at present, the American Psychiatric Association states that there is no such identifiable lesion, biochemical level, etc. that correlates to mental illness so the point is moot for now (and, I believe, forever). Serotonin theories about mood disorders are a bust, just as dopamine theories about schizophrenia are a bust. Serotonin levels are all over the map. Some suicides have turned out to have excessive serotonin levels while perfectly normal people have had remarkably low levels of serotonin metabolites -- thus we know absolutely nothing about the relationship between serotonin and mood. I believe you misunderstand the term "anti-psychiatry." Szasz loathes that term and certainly doesn't consider himself to be one. "Anti-psychiatry" is not about exposing abuses with the mental health system. It's a philosophical position. Lastly, Szasz and Breggin are not member of the "same crowd." Their positions are very different. Posted by: Francesca Allan at October 21, 2007 02:05 PMSorry, I must have missed this the first time around: *** Francesca: No, the research is not Alan: I am familiar with this critique. It has some (modest) merit. The problem with it is that it asks (it seems) for an unrealistic standard of proof, at least with respect to mood disorders. (Schizophrenia is a different matter.) *** Alan, to critique the biochemical theory of mental illness on the basis that there is no biochemical correlate whatsoever strikes to the very heart of biomedical psychiatry. It does not merely have “some (modest) merit”; it devastates the whole pseudo-science. Since psychiatrists claim with a straight face that mental illness is merely wonky brain chemicals, it is hardly demonstrating an “unrealistic standard of proof” to ask: Okay, which chemicals are involved? What levels of various neurotransmitters does a normal brain have? What's outside the normal range for serotonin, dopamine, etc.? By what mechanism do people spontaneously fix their brain chemicals? How could psychological counselling repair abnormal serotonin levels? Etc., etc., etc. Hey, if people feel better on Drug X or Y, go for it. But let's not pretend that Prozac is some kind of nutritional supplement for those lacking serotonin. Because, at this moment, I'm drinking a Chinchilla (Cinzano, cinnamon, lime, hot water) and I feel great but it's doubtful my improved mood is due to my drink addressing my "alcohol imbalance." Posted by: Francesca Allan at October 21, 2007 02:21 PMFrancesca, Would you have a source for your assertion that Hoffer combined electroshock and niacin? In the orthomolecular literature I read, I never read about this, but rather read that ECT is to be avoided if at all possible. I would agree with you that to use ECT today is far beyond the pale. I think, however, that doctors who used it back in the 50s or 60s, when patients had far fewer alternatives, should be judged by the standards of their day and not ours. Posted by: jaime at October 22, 2007 03:58 AMFrancesca, I am one of the tortured few who was born with a "tequila deficiency" in my brain. It's a poignant disease, making me feel things more than other people, in a way just think of me as "extra-human," if something bad happens to me, it hurts me more than if the same thing happens to those who don't suffer from my tragic aliment. And yet there is a cure - two margaritas taken slowly on a Friday night at least twice a month preferably with my "tequila deficiency support group." Have you considered the fact that you may have been misdiagnosed as "alcohol deficient" when really you have a more specific malady, "tequila deficiency." Tragically this has been known to occur. Next time try a Margarita with friends as just turning up a bottle of cuervo in a darkened room by yourself has been shown to have a high rate of side effects, among them frightening your pets. (Note the author of this post received funding from Sauza.) Posted by: Sally at October 22, 2007 06:37 AM
> Alan, I appreciate your efforts here and I believe you are ECT as a therapy for schizophrenia goes well back to the > If and when anyone finds a biochemical correlate for See my original post, above. There will never be, and can > Serotonin theories about mood disorders are a bust, just No, they aren't. In practice, they've been pretty > as dopamine theories about schizophrenia are a bust. They're a bust in the capacity of sole, explain- They're a semi-bust in terms of what has actually been Ascorbic acid, to give one example of an alternative, : PMID: 7816935 I hope no one interprets the foregoing as a suggestion > Serotonin levels are all over the map. Some suicides have Non sequiter. Please read the literature. > I believe you misunderstand the term "anti-psychiatry." I am speaking in "shorthand". It is a rough category, useful > Lastly, Szasz and Breggin are not member of the "same Roughly speaking, they are in the same crowd. Yes, of > Posted by: Francesca Allan at October 21, 2007 02:05 PM That would be true, except for the falsity of the premise: > Since psychiatrists claim with a straight face that mental You start off with a straw man. "MERELY" wonky brain > Okay, which chemicals are involved? The usual suspects, principally serotonin, but also > What levels of various neurotransmitters does a normal How could we possibly know? How would we define "normal"? What if "normal" levels were determined, and it was found > What's outside the normal range for serotonin, dopamine, Ditto, above. > By what mechanism do people spontaneously fix their brain That's a great question. I don't know the answer, but I Too bad Big Pharma (and it's shills) largely dictates the > How could psychological counselling repair abnormal What is so hard to imagine about that? Psychological If by "how" you are asking about the precise molecular You will note in the above that "deficiencies" of The scientific method is an epistemology that is very > Etc., etc., etc. Certainly not! SSRIs should be used -- if they are used at One of the most interesting and under-appreciated The SSRIs are apparently placing an extra demand on I sometimes wonder if the SSRI/suicide problem is a > Because, at this I suddenly see what the problem might be, here. You don't In other words: Be reasonable. Don't be pedantic. As for your improved mood: as you know, it need not be due Words/concepts like "balance", "normal" and "deficiency" But to ask "what is the normal level of serotonin in the Alan, you obviously know a lot about neurochemistry and I thank you for sharing it here. As you know, the brain is a mysterious and complicated organ. The chances of targeting one particular type of neural reaction with one particular drug are vanishingly small, yet shrinks have told me that Seroquel is an antipsychotic and a mood stabilizer and a sedative. That’s one all-round awesome drug, eh? No side effects, either! I'm cool with this kind of research but I have grave reservations about what psych patients are taught (their brains are defective, their disease is lifelong, drugs are the only solution). Naturally, I'm biased towards what I found out about my own mental disorder and that of people I know. In my experience, mental illness does not appear to originate in neurochemistry or, if it does, it can be repaired without resorting to altering neurochemistry. Since serotonin itself is not measurable in a living brain and since metabolites are all over the map, I believe it is a valid criticism to dispute the mantra that low serotonin equals depression. SSRIs are not more effective than the old tricyclics and neither subgroup of drugs are more effective than placebo. Biomedical psychiatry has failed to show any correlation with mental illness and neurochemistry. Remember, there is no laboratory test, none, to prove or disprove a psychiatric diagnosis. This is all speculation. Reacting well to Ritalin is now one way to diagnose ADHD. Interesting discussion, thanks. Jaime, I don’t recall when it was that Hoffer promoted electroshock. I believe it was during his work in Saskatchewan. And I won’t let him off the hook because “everyone else was doing it.” The damaging effects of electroshock were well-known. Sally, I think you’re on to something. Tequila slushies are a winter treat around here. Obviously, my tequila balance gets out of whack when it snows. I used to call it seasonal affective disorder. Thanks for setting me straight. :) Francesca, Here at Sauza Labs, we've discovered that all mental illness is really Tequilla Spectrum Disorder;). We are currently seeking volunteers for a research study involving the efficacy of frozen v. on the rocks Margaritas and cultural variation among patients who ingest slushies. There is one rather serious incident that did occur in Canada where a TSD sufferer placed a hockey mask on his face and begin singing karoke with pathological confidence, and yet this isolated incident is not cause to forgo our testing in children later this year. Posted by: Sally at October 23, 2007 10:42 AMYou know Sally, you've opened up Pandora's Box re: blended vs. rocks: brain freeze. Stephany, If you're ever in Atlanta, we'll have to go out and do some clinical research. Posted by: Sally at October 24, 2007 05:24 AM
> I'm cool with this kind of research but I have grave reservations about I agree unreservedly with the last -- that drugs are NOT the only solution. > In my experience, mental illness does not appear to originate in Everything you do, including moving your eyeballs across > Since serotonin itself is not measurable in a living brain and since It should not be repeated as a mantra, quite, but there is (I insist) > SSRIs are not more effective than the old tricyclics and neither I agree that SSRIs are not generally more effective than tricyclics, As to whether these drugs are more effective than placebo, there Of course, almost all these studies are on drugs as monotherapy. http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/topics/57_reviews.html e.g.: Active placebos versus antidepressants for depression Antidepressants versus placebo for the depressed elderly Antidepressants for generalized anxiety disorder Drugs versus placebo for dysthymia Tryptophan and 5-Hydroxytryptophan for depression St John's Wort for depression I’ve read the back and forth of this dialog with much interest and sadly to chuckle to myself. I come to this topic from a different perspective that of a very, very long time support person and care giver. Although I am only a lay-person I do read the various published research studies relating to issues of MDD and then subsequent studies differing from the initial studies and then I come to forums such as the Last Psychiatrist and the writings of CL PSYCH amongst others and this forum I consistently come away with the conclusion how does a support person and care giver truly make an informed and un-coerced medical decision when it comes to mood disorders. Obviously it is not easy as I well know. Of the dialog back and forth there is a statement I would like to quote which from my perspective and realties encompasses what it is all about:
Alan, as you said, “whatever “it” is,” it has been real for my wife and me for over 4 decades although the past 8 years have seen a “pretty remarkable” improvement in her almost continuous depression free state through the use of VNS Therapy. In the more than 4 decades that we’ve battled her illness we’ve utilized the so-called non-invasive therapies such as dietary modifications, vitamins, minerals and supplements as well as other holistic approaches including acupuncture and various disciplines of talk therapy along with psychotropic medications, ECT etc without any sustained long-term remission until VNS and not to mention the cadre of attending health care practitioners. Hereto the debate continues as to the safety and efficacy of the VNS Therapy and accusations of “placebo effect.” Well, I happen to also believe in placebo effect along with my advocacy for all relatively safe treatment options to assist the patient to obtain some relief. In the case of VNS I chuckle about several doctors claiming placebo effect and when I’ve questioned them to find in the medical literature any reference to “multi-year continuous placebo effect” my questions have gone unanswered. As the author of “Out of the Black Hole,” Charles Donovan, mentioned to me and I’ll paraphrase, “I’ve been having one-year placebo effects continuously for the past 6 years.” From my perspective, the debates are healthy, but when one’s charge is experiencing unrelenting suicidal ideations and conventional treatment options are ineffective or cannot sustain any positive responses and the patient is otherwise of sound medical health; something has to be attempted. I too am of the opinion based upon my research, readings and collaborations that the theory of a genetic predisposition to a bio-neurochemical malfunctioning within the brain is a valid theory. Whether the mood disorder is triggered by abuse or dysfunctional parenting during child rearing or situational and/or environmental stresses or shock the pain and suffering is real for the patient as well as their loved ones. As a lay-depression expert to my spouse I can cite in her medical history no such stresses or shock or child rearing issues but a familial and paternal history of mood disorders also being exhibited by her siblings. In conclusion, I would just like to once again cite the words of Alan” SOMETHING is terribly wrong, and many people suffer with it -- whatever "it" is. Warmly,
I didn't mean to give the impression that mental suffering doesn't exist. My own periods of depression have been the most agonizing experiences I can imagine. But a need to "do something" often leads to increased hardship and disability. Here's a hypothetical depressed person: she's working in an office job that she loathes, with a long commute in a car that she can't afford, to get back and forth from a house that she can't afford. She's sinking deeper and deeper into credit card debt to cover her basic living expenses. At the end of a long day, she's too exhausted to do anything, so she eats crappy food in front of the television. There is nothing of meaning in her life -- it's all earn, earn, earn, spend, spend, spend. Does this woman have a serotonin deficiency? Probably. Is the answer Prozac? Doubtful. Posted by: Francesca Allan at October 24, 2007 04:52 PMHi, Herb. Thanks for your comments. Congratulations on having found something that Could you say a few words about VNS versus Is VNS appropriate or bipolars? (Your wife Is VNS known and used widely enough now so that Questions questions.
Was your wife ever evaluated for hypothyroidism? I cringe a little when I ask whether or not Just a thought. A few more words about "the cause" and such: Francesca: I AGREE. This woman has a lot of problems on multiple Giving Prozac (naked) is obviously not going The Prozac might (MIGHT) give her just the What would you suggest to her, Francesca? Alan, not to butt in, but I would suggest to Francesca's hypothetical woman that she become involved in some sort of social action to improve her life and the lives of other similarly situated people whether a labor union, a political party (free), or some such, try excercise, getting a pet (a cheap one like cat or a couple of hamsters), joining a support group, posting a free blog on the internet;), joining a church or meditation group or park beautification group, volunteering, etc. I would not suggest drug addiction whether crack, vodka, or prozac. Drug addiction to make poverty bearable always causes more problems that it cures, and prozac costs more than paying membership dues at a gym every month. Given the choice between prozac and the gym, she should join the gym if she has the money to pay for either. Sure a drink every now and then won't hurt her, but prozac which takes a week or two to have any effect would not help, and in fact might make her develop a sense of false optimism and quit her job prematurely or become violent and "go postal" at the office or become homeless and commit suicide. Plus having a psych diagnosis/conviction and prescription on your health insurance record makes it impossible to ever get health insurance again and if employers do a through background check difficult to get another job. Posted by: Sally at October 25, 2007 10:43 AMFrancesca, Having 4 decades of challenges in trying to control, stabilize and obtain long-term remission for my spouse’s mood disorder I prefer to deal with realities and not the hypothetical and I use most often the use the first person singular as opposed to they, we, you etc as I often read on forums of this nature for which I wish to compliment you. My spouse almost always enjoyed her job and looked forward to her time in the office and the camaraderie. The commute to work was comfortable for her as I drove and she could nap and do whatever. In her case it was save, save, save, save so as execute her genetic inheritance and predisposition to shop until she dropped. Actually my wife became known as the “shopping bag lady” as every evening when she came to my office she had a bag from Macy’s or Bloomies or Lord & Taylor or one of the department stores fulfilling her needs for that evening. Did my wife have some situational or environmental event to point some kind of finger at? Actually, from a financial standpoint money was not and is not an issue nor is family relationships etc. Personally, I don’t believe nor do her doctors of any outside influences and my reasons and research therefore lead me to believe some kind of malfunctioning within her brain.
If all the individuals who I read on various forums had their way there would be no treatments not only for mood disorders but for other illnesses and diseases as well. I am an advocate for education and I encourage hope and persistence. VNS, rTMS, MST, DBS, FEAST, MRI etc are newer treatments options being researched with the exception of VNS which is FDA approved but difficult to obtain. I selected to concentrate some 9 years ago my efforts to share information relating to VNS Therapy for MDD simply because my spouse was one of the earliest research study subject for that therapy and there was little to no information available. The website I offer as I stated previously is a repository of information I’ve garnered relating to the VNS Therapy. There were also some 17,000 prescriptions written for the therapy but unfortunately in my opinion CMS created a two-tier health system for the have and have not and many who chose the therapy will be unable to obtain their choice of treatment through lack of funds. Many of these issues are elaborated upon in our website. “Do you think ECT is good or should be used more often?” --- Alan Knowing that which I do today I would opt first for the least invasive therapies first then advancing toward medications and further proceeding toward the nueromodulation modalities such as VNS as adjunctive and/or alternative treatment regimens if necessary. As a support person and care giver I would consider and/or opt for ECT only when the suicidal ideations become unmanageable or a failed suicide attempt has occurred. Then again, there are also a number of options to be considered when utilizing. I am not a complacent support person for my spouse or anyone that has asked my assistance. I am her advocate and have always tried to be reasonably educated and do the best I can within my abilities while considering all treatment choices. VNS has been used for those patients assigned the diagnosis of Bipolar. Personally, I’ve come to learn from spouse’s own history that Bipolar Disorder or Unipolar Depression is symptomology that could easily be one event apart. My spouse suffered what was diagnosed as life long MDD. When her prosthesis (VNS Therapy) was activated for the first time in our marriage I saw her mood state escalate from depression to depression free to elevated mood state, to mania to paranoia to paranoid delusions. What we learned was the therapy was certainly doing something. The next project was to control the therapy in order to establish a depression free state of wellness which we have basically accomplished. My point is simply taken that the human body as well as the brain is dynamic in nature and while you are concerned about potential memory loss from ECT the fact remains and I well aware in my spouse and others that depression left untreated also have a major diminution upon memory as well as cognition. As a care giver my concern has always been to maintain control and stability with the hope of achieving long-term remission. Lastly, my spouse has been subjected to numerous thyroid tests of various kinds as well as various blood workups, scans, neuropsychological evaluations etc, etc, etc over these more than 4 decades. “Nada” is the result in terms of finding something we can put our fingers upon to say maybe this is the cause of her MDD. If it were only that simple in her case which it is not? Warmly, Posted by: Herb at October 25, 2007 12:05 PM The "hypothetical" woman described above was me and the answer was to ditch the consumerist, soul-destroying lifestyle. Had I been Prozacked into submission, I could easily have kept it going another couple of decades. I'm glad I didn't and so are my husband and family. My "noncompliance" and "belligerent attitude" and “lack of insight” saw me through. In the vast majority of cases, mental illness is not a chronic condition. I've been "bipolar" and "schizophrenic" and had "personality disorder," among other psych labels. People should be taught that their crisis is a reversible breakdown and a great opportunity to improve their approach to life. Posted by: Francesca Allan at October 25, 2007 04:06 PMHerb: thanks for the details. I appreciate (very much) the point about Regarding this: Yes, certainly! Paranoid delusions! I get the Alan Posted by: Alan at October 25, 2007 07:12 PM
> Alan, not to butt in, but I would suggest to Francesca's I agree. However, what is this woman REALISTICALLY capable > I would not Is ANY drug use "drug addiction"? I don't buy this. In my view all substances are on a I am appending below a few snippets from a great article > Drug addiction to make poverty bearable always causes more The gym is great, if you've got the energy and time for > Given the choice Unused gym memberships benefit no one. And there are a LOT Here's the snippets: http://sociology.ucsc.edu/directory/reinarman/policing_pleasure.pdf GASTRONOMICA - SUMMER 2007 Policing Pleasure: Food, Drugs, and the Politics of [...snip...] "During much of the European Middle Ages and into early [...snip...] "[T]he idea that alcohol and other drugs were not properly [...snip...] "[T]he line between ingesting a substance because it [...snip...] "The difference between the 'highs' one gets from a great [...snip...] "In The Doors of Perception, Aldous Huxley wrote: 'Most [...snip...] "Will...surveillance be extended beyond drugs to diet? For > The "hypothetical" woman described above was me and the Wonderful! Fantastic! Let's celebrate! I'll bring a big > Had I been Prozacked into submission, I could "Prozacked into submission" makes it sound like the pdoc What I'm saying is: let's keep Prozac itself separate from > I'm glad I didn't and so are my husband and family. My "Francesca, we're all very concerned about your :-D > In the vast majority of cases, ??!! On what do you base this? My impression is the opposite. Serious mental problems (or > I've been "bipolar" and "schizophrenic" and had For some people with sufficient resources, both internal In THIS message (above) we learned that the hypothetical When you first described the hypothetical woman, it I was not recommending Prozac so much as I was Taking all these things into account, what should the I said above that "everything we do is half-assed". And regarding the "Axes": the DSM section on the Axes Even better than the DSM axes (though covering http://theicarusproject.net/alternative-treatments/herbal-convergence-reportback What is radical mental health? --- Respects where the person is at. Here here! See, generally: The Icarus Project: Navigating the Space Between blog: http://theicarusproject.net/blog/icarus-project Posted by: Alan at October 25, 2007 10:00 PMAlan, I like the radical mental health idea and will check out the link you provided. In spite of all of my theory, I have a dear friend and neighbor who hasn't worked in almost a year and sits alone all day and night what keeps her "sane" is gardening and we're in a drought...everyone else in the hood and my friends outside of the neighborhood tell me to get as far away from her as I can but I can't walk away and finding counseling alternatives and even meds if she wants them ain't easy. I didn't realize how much there's not in community mental health. Ironically, if she lived the neighboring county, there would be free care, but not mine, not so far. I think the problem with prozac (which I'm using generically to mean antidepressants) is this: for lots of people it doesn't give that omph that you are talking about to get them off the couch and into the gym - research has proven not only is it not very effective for most people who take it but when it is effective it's only for a short while and then lots of folks spend the rest of their lives trying to get the initial ssri buzz back. And of course a placebo has been proven to be equally effective. I know the first time I took an ssri I was unhappy in an emotionally abusive relationship while being tortured by my emotionally abusive parents who were much nicer to me than their parents were to them - anyway, I had issues, as we all do, among them unintentionally recreating the same emotional dynamics in each relationship I entered that I had with my family of orgin - and then I took an ssri and felt better immediately. I got the drug because I read about it and wanted to try it. I was able to end the relationship (which I hadn't been able to do previously because I was terrified of being alone) and send out resumes and get a job using my advanced degree - the thing is this all happened in the first few days I started taking the drug which means it was all placebo effect. Day one I had a healthy courageous conversation with the future ex-boyfriend. Pharmacists, psychiatrist, etc., explained this had to be placebo as the drug doesn't work immediately. I had read so much about taking ssri's that finally getting an rx for one gave me so much hope I really did get better. To me this means the placebo effect is not something to be devalued but to be examined. Why is it that in almost every study of everything from cancer cures to anti psychotics to antibiotics the placebo is at the very least "almost as effective" as the "real drug." If we could look at what this says about the regenerative properties of the human mind, body, and spirit, we'd be on to something. As for most mental illness being chronic, that's only in the western world and probably because of the fact that we treat the symptoms (emotional distress) and not the disease (the environment that is causing the distress) as well as reverse placebo effect, i.e. if a doctor tells you you'll never get well, you'll never get well. Posted by: Sally at October 26, 2007 06:48 AMAlan, you are making outrageous and absurd assumptions about my situation, as summed up by your equating ditching consumerism with taking up "rum punch and weed." I'm really not interested in continuing a discussion where you invent situations (employed husband, joyful kids) that don't exist. The short answer is that I did it myself, with very little support from the people around me. Mental illness is supposed to be chronic yet people recover from their breakdowns all the time. Nobody benefits from the chronic model except for Big Pharma. Posted by: Francesca Allan at October 26, 2007 08:43 AMNOTE: this message is NOT for Francesca. It is for other ..................... Sally: "I think the problem with prozac (which I'm using Placebo has not been proven to be equally effective, in most I mostly agree with everything else you are saying. Sometimes There are two things missing: 1) nutrition therapy as The problem is that everyone -- patients and docs alike -- are (And by the way, sometimes the effort to "get the initial SSRI I'm not a fan of Prozac and other drugs. But I do see their At this point I am just repeating myself, so I will stop Sally: "the placebo effect is not something to be devalued but ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY. NOTE: this message is NOT for Francesca. It is ................ from the furiousseasons "about" page: "there isn't much of a free market of ideas in the mental health world--it's pretty much the mental health establishment versus the anti-psychiatry movement" So it is. But that "free market" and in-between Jaime: Ms. Allan, If you disclose and document all the abbreviations that follow your name, I'll be happy to reference them when addressing you. * How about calling me Francesca and I'll call you Jaime? Jaime: Dr. Hoffer's work and therapies have impressed enough people to fill an entire ballroom when they celebrated his 90th birthday. * I'm sure. I'm sure Fuller Torrey gets a great turnout too. Hell, I'd have shown up for Hoffer's b-day celebration if there was free grub and booze. Jaime: Could it be that your patient sample is not representative? * Of course. It's very possible. I'm only talking about a handful of people, at most. However, within that handful, are some horror stories. For example, on the basis of one visit (for which I had been informed that I was actually going for NUTRITIONAL counselling), the esteemed Dr. Hoffer came up with "anxiety bordering on schizophrenia." That's not even a fucking diagnosis but it still bit me in the ass a few years later. Posted by: Francesca Allan at October 28, 2007 05:22 PMNUTRITION AND THE MIND by GEORGE WATSON Ph.D His work is summerized by Dr. Schenker at NUTRI-SPEC.NET
Of course ya'll are aware that Eli Lilly and their cohorts would be agasnt using nutrients (vitamins/amino acids / minerals) in leau of Rx. Feel free to call if interested 704 434 9130 Posted by: Dr. Ezra at October 31, 2007 04:51 AMPost a comment
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